The IAFF's Evidence-Based Fireground Operations

The panelists on this B Shifter Podcast include: Grady Valencis, Jeff Seaton, John Ceriello, Chad Christensen, Sean Gray, Michael McCarthy, Ian Bennett, Sean Decrane, and it is hosted by Chris Stewart and John Vance.

We talk with a nationwide IAFF instructor cadre about how evidence-based fireground operations turn UL FSRI research into decisions you can make on your very next incident. We break down why live fire and psychomotor reps create buy-in, tighten tactics, and help firefighters stay aggressive while improving safety and victim outcomes. 

The discussion includes: 
• why the IAFF builds an evidence-based fireground operations program and how the cadre forms 
• what changed when Houston hosts the first train-the-trainer delivery 
• why “tell them, show them, let them explain it back” beats PDFs and videos 
• course options from awareness to operations to train the trainer 
• what a host site needs for live fire demonstrations and rotations 
• how to scale regionally so small departments can afford the training 
• how we adapt the class to local buildings, staffing, and common incident profiles 
• why command officers must be in the room to prevent tactical and strategic gaps 
• hands-on stations covering fire behavior, stream mechanics, thermal imaging, search methods, and fire attack 
• what surprised us most about veteran buy-in and the humility that drives culture change 

Learn more about the Evidence-Based Fireground Operations program here: https://www.iaff.org/fire-ground-operations/

Learn about the IAFF Fire Ground Survival program here: https://www.iaff.org/fire-ground-survival/

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Transcript

Welcome And Program Preview

SPEAKER_05 0:04

Hello and welcome to the B Shifter Podcast. John Vance here. I'll be joined by Chris Stewart, my co-host, in just a few minutes today. We will be talking about the evidence-based fire ground operations program from the IAFF. And we have a panel today. I think it's the most people we've ever had on the B Shifter Podcast in one episode with us today. So hopefully it goes well. Grady Valensis will be with us, as well as Sean DeCrane from the IAF. Sean is the Health and Safety Division Assistant General President. Then along with them, Jeff Seaton, Chad Christensen, Sean Gray, Michael McCarthy, and Ian Bennett. They are all part of the instructor cadre, as well as John Cirillo, who, if you're hanging out with B Shifter, he's been on the podcast and also taught with us before. So literally coast to coast, some of the bigger, more prominent fire departments and some great instructors today here on the B Shifter podcast to talk about the evidence-based fire ground operations program from the IAFF. So stay tuned for that. If you're interested in this, as you're listening, go to the show notes. We'll have links in there for you to get more information. So if this is a program, you're sitting there and thinking, man, I want to bring this to my region, my program or my local, just get into our show notes. You'll have a link right there. And really, what this is is built on the findings from UL and their research institute, better known as FSRI, Fire Service Research Institute, and the experience the IFF instructors have, they've coupled this together to bring it into the field. So it's no longer just written words on the paper and some videos, but it's actually showing the locals how this science gets applied to the work that we do in the fire service. So hang on for that. I do want to mention that the fire command book is in stock and now shipping. Fire command three. It is a new version of Fire Command with a lot of updates. There hasn't been a new version since 2002. And that is available at bshifter.com. Go to our store and it will ship out right away. I know last week we shipped out over 400 books in just two days. So if you're interested in getting that, please go to bShifter.com and you can order that now as we are shipping. Let's get to the conversation and our panel today talking about the evidence-based fire ground operations program and the IAFF's delivery of that.

Why The IAFF Built This Program

SPEAKER_05 2:39

We want to start off with Jeff. Jeff Seaton, can you give us an overview of this program and how it came together?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Sure. Yeah, thanks for having us. Essentially, everybody that's a part of this program, the cadre, our leadership at the IFF, Grady Valence, Deputy Director of Health and Safety and assistant to the general president health and safety, Sean DeGrane, and all the guys. We've had talks over the years. We've crossed paths. We've been involved with UL in different capacities. And realistically, last fall, AGP DeGrane and I, after talking to a number of the cadre members over the years, just said, hey, you know, nobody's stepping up really as an organization, taking this platform on and pushing forward. And the IFF has been more involved in the last couple of years with near miss and line of duty deaths investigation with Ash. And so our presence there. And so realistically, we brought that forward a number of us in those discussions with the IFF leadership. And they took it forward and really said, hey, you know, FSRI has done a phenomenal job with boot camp and all the online training and so forth. But psychomotor, live fire training, that's where we learn, that's where we get the buy-in, right? And up until that point, I think that's really been the challenge is you want us to believe the science and the research and apply it, but you're not giving us the training and the education on that side where we are basically in, you know, seeing it, hearing it, and experiencing it, which we all know that's what you're going to get buy-in from. And so the IFF leadership, GP, and the board of directors approved for that program. So last fall is really kind of when we started to assemble the cadre, had our first meeting in December. And before you knew it, we were in Houston working with the local 341 and the Houston Fire Department, delivering the first train the trainer program.

Houston Rollout And Early Wins

SPEAKER_05 4:30

And how did that go? How how'd that initial rollout go? And how did you connect what we found out through FSRI with their evidence-based research to actually connecting it with what we're doing on the fire ground?

SPEAKER_01 4:45

So Local 341 reached out originally and then worked in collaboration with their uh the executive staff to have us come in and deliver the class. And I think it'd be great for members of the cadre who were there to kind of share their own perspectives, their interaction. I can tell you that each one of us here on a regular basis from the 40 members who attended that training. And as we told them at the beginning of the week, the beauty of this is you're going to be able to implement things the first day you go back on duty and you're going to understand the fire ground in a different way. So I'd love for the members of the cadre to kind of express what they saw and heard in conversations and that type of stuff with the uh members of Local 341.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

I I can I'll I'll weigh in on that. We, you know, the number of us in in this particular cadre had been involved with underwriters laboratories and FSRIs delivery of the the boot camp, right? And so we've, you know, we this program is like morphed out of that. So some of the what would have been the normal bumps in the road for the first couple deliveries, we've already kind of accomplished through UL. So we we kind of had a nice framework to work on. But I think for for all of us, and again, the the cadres are you know a west coast to east coast group across the entire American fire service. What still blows me away every time we're we're involved is watching the light bulbs go off when you deliver this, you know, evidence-based, common sense, research-driven knowledge on the fire ground. Some of it because through the years now, I think some of the departments that we're delivering it to now are certainly have seen a little bit of it, you know, to some degree, but there's always some component of what's delivered over the the couple days that they were not aware of. And because we have this excellent group of people, each of them has experiences in their own uh jurisdictions. And I don't know, you know, I'm not building on my experience anymore now that I'm retired, but you know, we we each have these you know experiences based in our own departments. However, there's a commonality at Crumbs, you know, amongst all of them. And we can you know explain and deliver that. And usually what happens is the same things we've seen, wherever we're delivering this, they've seen it. And there's your connection, there's your light bulb, and and it's incredible. It's just kind of like an very organic way that it plays out, you know.

SPEAKER_09 7:26

Goes to that first slide, right, John? Like I was gonna mention the first slide was why are we here? And we had an entire six-hour program to get through, and we were stuck on slide one for like two and a half hours because we asked some of the senior members of the Houston Fire Department that really had, you know, faced a lot. They go to a ton of fires, you know, so through a lot of respect of those senior members and kind of asking them questions about things that they had seen with their own eyes, and then sometimes answering those questions with the research-based knowledge of matching those together. And I think that was really successful of, you know, really going after the senior members.

SPEAKER_08 8:05

I'll say a couple of things. I think the unique thing about the program that the IAFF has put together, it's the combination of the knowledge and the psychomotor with live fire. I mean, you can read the stuff all day, but there's we're just showing me people, right? And there were so many times in the live fire portion where guys, like Sean said, have been to a ton of fires, but they have certain beliefs. And so they they don't believe the science or they distrust the science, and and they say, Yeah, I don't I don't know about this. Can I just sit right next to the fire room? Yeah, man, you could you could sit right there and watch it happen. You don't have to just watch it happen. You can feel it happen, you can hear it happen, you can see it happen in a way that's so much more impactful than anyone standing in front of a classroom, right? You prep their minds with the stuff on day one, and then they can see it and feel it and do it in the days going forward. So that those connections are just so so strong with the program that's put together, you know.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Yeah, I would say the uh cadre of instructors, they have been with uh this material uh since its inception. There's members on our group that have actually been part of the coordinated fire attack study. So they have a I wouldn't to say a deep understanding would be an understatement. They were there designing the experiments and understanding the why. So as Sean had mentioned on that first slide, the why are we here? Uh those we were able to answer questions that maybe people didn't believe the research because it was prepared uh by folks we thought were just researchers and not members, you know, men and women, brothers and sisters in the fire service. And then from feedback, we were I'd say within uh you know a week to 10 days, the group was getting text from folks that had attended our class that they had put lessons learned and we were able to functionalize some of the uh the the fire ground tactics, and they were making having positive results on the fire ground within the immediately, uh like a starting Monday kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

From our perspective, one of the unique things that we've been able to do with this program, as we told them at the beginning, we're gonna tell you what the research and the science says, and then you're gonna experience the science and the research. Right. And that's what, as the group has talked about, that's what captured them, as Ian talked about. Being in the hallway, being in the burn room with and they come out of there and it's like, now I see what you're talking about, right? And that's what we told them is we're gonna tell you, then we're gonna show you, and then on the last day, you're gonna tell us what we showed you and what you experienced. Right. And so again, like the group has said, they were able to tie all that in as opposed to just watching a video or reading a book and supposedly being willing to take that as fact and move forward.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

Yeah, being involved with FSRI, you know, like with John and Sean from the very beginning, it's rewarding for us as an as an organization, the IFF, really to start taking the lessons that we're learning through the research and be able to deliver it to our membership. I think under General President Kelly, we're really making a push to really become more engaged in training our members, educating our members in emergency response. If you look at the trade organizations, yeah, if you look at the trade organizations out there, yeah, I'm not here anymore. Training comes from the trades, whether it's the plumbers or the pipe fitters or the carpenters, they really develop and deliver great training because they're utilizing the membership that has that skill set, that has that experience. And in representing 367,000 members, we've got an awfully deep bench of talent. And this group right here is reflective of that. So I think this was a great opportunity for us to start to provide that leadership in this training. It's science-based, it's evidence-based, and as everyone here has mentioned, we can actually demonstrate to our members what that research is not only telling them, but showing them.

SPEAKER_05 12:06

I don't know what happened to Sean. So we'll hopefully he'll pop back on.

SPEAKER_06 12:10

His phone overheated.

SPEAKER_05 12:11

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

Or he's making a transaction.

SPEAKER_05 12:14

He's at an undisclosed location. He'll he'll he'll use Apple back on. Yeah. Here he is. He's back with us. So very good. That that sounds like a fantastic rollout

Course Formats And Site Requirements

SPEAKER_05 12:24

for you guys. Uh, what what are the what's the criteria to be able to do this program? What kind of ways will it be delivered? What are the physical needs that you would have as far as training sites or required structures? How is it how is this going to roll out?

SPEAKER_03 12:38

So we are offering uh multiple formats. So we can do a two-day classroom session where really it's you're not incorporating the live fire, or you're just doing a quick demonstration. We have a three-day, which is incorporating the live fire in an observational mode, or that fourth day that's train the trainer. So you could actually go and start utilizing that training within your district or within your department and start passing that information along. Um you know, we're working with Honolulu right now, we'll be there in October, and they're you know putting their training programs or their training apparatus together. Obviously, we to do the the live fire demonstrations, we need a burn building or something that could act in that capacity. But so really, if if you can utilize your local training center, that's that's basically what we could what we would need.

SPEAKER_06 13:40

So I I know this group well enough, and the experience that you all have, not only teaching inside your organizations, but then going outside, whether it's FSRI, whether it's IAFF, and and and maybe together, right? And we've all learned how to teach and deliver this, you know, as we've gone along, because uh the you know, well, everybody here has scars from trying to teach other people inside of our organizations fire behavior things. I gotta believe that this combination and this material is a lot better received because of all the lessons we've learned and because of actually getting, you know, putting their hands on it, seeing it, doing it, all those types of things. Is that am I am I kind of tracking with your guys' experience?

SPEAKER_03 14:28

No, I'll answer that real quick and then turn it over to these guys. I mean, all you have to do is look at this panel here and see the experience that's there and the credibility that's there. And I think that is really important to the success of the program. They can, you know, each one of our instructors within the evidence-based fire ground operations has that ability to have that discussion, whether it's with a firefighter, a lieutenant, or a chief officer. They have the experience and the reputation to have that conversation, and I should say, and the knowledge to have that conversation and really explain how the research and the lessons can be incorporated into their operations. And I'll turn it over to anybody else that wants to add on to that.

SPEAKER_09 15:13

I think the hands-on component is huge, right? And so some of the things we've done in the past is a lot of the hands-on components were mostly demonstrations. And I know, like in Houston, we were very successful, especially with the live fire portion. That's where we started to see a lot of light bulbs come on, was because we were able to flow water down a hallway, and they were actually seeing that water from a distance, their stream, not even going into the fire room, was affecting the fire. And they all have enough experience to recognize that. So, like I was in there at one at one point stoking the fire with the training chief, and he was like, I can't believe that it's doing that. So then he called in a bunch of senior members, and they all came in and watched, and that actually turned into this very big teaching learning moment for them was that here we are, all this stuff we talked about in the class, you know, things get better from the distance, even when you apply water from a distance, and they got to see it with the live fire piece. So I think that's a really, really big piece of the program, is the is the live fire part.

SPEAKER_05 16:10

So as you're doing the training, are you uh is the intent to train trainers that will sustain the program within the department? Or how how do how does the the message go forward to the rest of the membership?

SPEAKER_01 16:22

So we we've got three different opportunities for people. There is the train the trainer program that we did for Houston that we've got upcoming in Honolulu and Los Angeles, and then we also have a three-day operations program where they don't get that fourth day of teaching teachback opportunities and so forth, but the curriculum and the content is the same. And then we've developed a one-day, basically an awareness level, which is uh heavy in the classroom, and then demonstrations with the host room mechanics props and thermal imaging, some different things like that. So, again, capturing them somewhat, but again, realistically, the operations or the train the trainer is where they're really going to get to experience the research and the evidence and see that themselves and experience it like Sean and the guys have talked about.

SPEAKER_06 17:09

So at this point, it's locals reaching out to you with interest and departments reaching out to you with interest. Where do you see this going? Because I I uh I see this being like incredibly important, and I see it getting popular enough that you guys are gonna get worn out. So, like are we looking at a long-term vision of of the delivery of this because I see see the value being

Scaling Up With Train The Trainer

SPEAKER_06 17:36

huge here?

SPEAKER_03 17:36

Yes. Well, as I mentioned earlier, we have a pretty deep bench with the IFF, and part of the program is going to be making sure that we bring on instructors that can help move this forward. And actually, we are going to go into a partnership with FSRI in the implementation and the promotion of this class and the availability of it. So, I mean, we worked with Keith Stakes and with Damian Drakowski to really build the curriculum. And just meeting with Keith the other day, there there is that continued commitment to this. And I think Jeff mentioned the or John did the boot camps that were out there. And we see this as a as the next step, right? It it works in partnership with the FSRI boot camps. So yeah, that there's going to be a formal partnership with us and FSRI so we can sustain this moving forward.

SPEAKER_08 18:32

I think a similar model we all have in mind is is the FTS, the Fire Ground Survival Program that the IAFF was put together and was so successful, right? We develop a level of master instructors, then we bring in the next level of cadre. And I think our goal for all of us is that this just becomes sort of the baseline level of the knowledge across the membership of the fire service, right? Anyone who's served by the IAFF.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Yeah, one of the things that in my own state here in California, that I've talked to the president for the California Professional Firefighters, Daryl Roberts, is for us to look at annually hosting one class and it being more of a region-based one when you're in the north, when you're in the south, and essentially be able to send people and have it sponsored so that the our members that are from smaller organizations that are not metro size organizations that can afford to pay for the class. We can send people from all over Northern California or Southern California. They can still be locally and then create their own program just like we we can do with the uh Fireground Survival and other programs. So to me, again, it's not to be focused on that. We had, I think it was, I can't remember the county in Texas. One of them reached out with that kind of concept that surrounds Houston with the idea of, hey, we've got nine departments, we'd like to create our own train the trainer program so that we can send people and then we can go back and collaboratively deliver this across the nine departments. So yeah, it's definitely to expand it and push it out and let people take up take it forward.

SPEAKER_06 20:06

Do you guys see? Uh so for instance, I'll give an example. You know, before I retired from Phoenix, one of the things we did is we took the fire ground survival curriculum and we implemented it into our recruit training academy. And we were fortunate enough to have master instructors in the in in our local and and being able to help be able to support that. I see your this material and this program being hugely valuable to departments at the recruit training level and obviously at the incumbent training level, you know that's gonna shore up a lot of the the education that we're giving new firefighters coming into the business and making them better. Do you guys you guys kind of see it that same way? Have you had experience with that at all?

SPEAKER_08 20:50

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think most of our departments already do that. You know, our department has several water mapping props. All the learning lessons that have come out of FSRI are being implemented at least by my department, I think by all of our departments. I think that was almost one of the selection criteria that Jeff came up with for the initial cadre was hey, if your department's not doing this kind of at an institutional level, we might need people who've already fought those battles in their own departments, right? You've you've kind of proved yourself delivering it to your own membership.

SPEAKER_06 21:26

So you can take a beating. Is that what you're saying, Ian?

SPEAKER_08 21:32

Yes, yes, yeah, I got it. I'm with you. Take a look and keep on taking exactly.

SPEAKER_05 21:37

So looking at implementation locally, what how how much of an opportunity is there to customize it? You

Adapting Science To Local Reality

SPEAKER_05 21:43

know, where Mike or John fight fires is a lot different than where a lot of us fight fires in the lightweight construction, new construction areas uh versus some of the oldest cities in America. So, uh how how much of this is adaptable to the kind of fire behavior, even that we would see in the

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Well, I think one of the important things that we've got.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

So what I would say to that simply is the research was actually built upon understanding that it was for really the international fire service, but let's just say we'll focus on the U.S. for now. The research itself was built on that. You know, for instance, the private dwelling for the stream study or the victim survivability, things of that nature. Initially there wasn't a long hallway. And the members of the FDNY that were on that particular panel asked for there to be built in a longer hallway so that would accommodate some of the maybe the more uh urban areas that are dealing with walk-ups and tenements and things like that. So they'd have a hallway. But again, you know, a private dwelling can have a hallway too. So it's not like it's just for one particular uh urban versus rural. However, the you know, once the the research is based upon that, then all the conclusions are kind of based on that and they can all be applied. I don't really care where you are. Obviously, we're talking about structures, you know. So, you know, I do think across America, the the predominant place that civilians die and firefighters die is still a private dwelling. So that being said, the large bulk of this information is absolutely applicable, regardless of where you are in the States.

SPEAKER_03 23:24

And one of the, and I know John can't hear me, so uh, but one of the things that we also do is there's a lot of front-end work that goes into this class. Jeff and and the instructors get on the call. I mean, we've been meeting with Honolulu for what, a month already, Jeff. You know, and same with when we did the rollout in Houston, having those discussions with the local training officers, understanding what some of the issues that they're facing locally, so you can incorporate that into the lesson plan and also into the discussions and maybe the questions that you are asking the attendees, like Sean and Ian, were talking about. You have that discussion right at the beginning of the class. Where are they at in their understanding of this material? Where are they at in the implementation of the tactics? And that really helps the class experience. You know, that you can have the discussion specific to the issues of that area. So I think that's an important part of this program.

SPEAKER_09 24:25

Yeah, to build on that, I think that you know, one of the important pieces is even after you go, like I still talk to a ton of Houston guys now. Like I have some good buddies that we just we bonded and created friendships right while being there for a week with those guys. And still to this day, I probably get texts daily or weekly from these guys, you know, just comparing fires that we're going to, still having discussions. They're still asking questions. Hey, I was in the firehouse today, we're having coffee at the kitchen table, and this topic came up. Can we call you real quick? You know, and it's it's just a quick five-minute phone call on speakerphone, and we talk about whatever air entrainment or something, you know, something some small part of the class, but it's still some questions that are still being brought up. And those that's what I love about this program is because we're building relationships.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

The one one thing I just add to that is when you talk about department sizes, we're cognizant of that. And you know, we talk our staffing levels and they vary throughout the for throughout the country. You know, and one of the questions we'll pose to our the attendees is is simply can can 12 people do the work of three? The answer is yes, but it's going to take them a lot longer. So fire ground operations that are evidence-based, they're designed for the safety and survival of you know, the men and women, children we swore an oath to protect, you know, dictate what we should be doing, not historically we have to do this first, then this, then this in this way. So we're using you know these uh these hands-on tasks based on the science that we've learned, what improves survivability for everyone.

SPEAKER_06 25:57

So some of my experience has been that sometimes the the membership on the rigs and the folks that are doing the work, maybe their knowledge and understanding of this stuff outpaces the folks who are the ICs. And then vice versa. We've definitely seen that seen that you know in some places. What are you guys doing to kind of help support both both of those connection points as you teach the class? Because it it works way better when everybody's operating on that same understanding level.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Yeah, we absolutely encourage the host organization or the region, if it's going to be a regional one, to include chief officers. We want that. And in fact, that was a discussion with Honolulu that they're gonna have a number of line battalion chiefs present to be there because we've identified that exact same thing. We can't afford for there to be a gap at the task, tactical, or strategic level. We have to make sure there's a similar understanding, right? Because either then if we don't have that, then that's when we start to have problems. Then we're not able to save the lives that we've sworn, as Mike said, to save. And now we start to get ourselves in trouble because of that. So yeah, no, we're absolutely advocating for them to make sure that they have command officers present. And in some circumstances, even the executive level, right? The deputies and the assistants and the fire chiefs, if they're not able to sit in, then we've been able to have discussions. That's what we did, in fact, with Houston, because originally their executive staff was going to try to be present, some of them due to obviously their busy schedule, they weren't. And so we were able to go back and spend a day and sit down with them and communicate the curriculum and the content and the understanding of what the line was going to be asking for in terms of support. So we spent a day with them doing that. And even in conversations with the members who took it, they've they've mentioned as it's being brought up the chain of command, it's been a very smooth process compared to in the past at times where there wasn't that communication. So yeah, no, we absolutely advocate the same thing as FGS and any of the other IFF programs. Again, it's not focused at task or tactical or strategic, it's it's a blend, and we have to have it up and down in both directions.

SPEAKER_05 28:06

We're gonna add uh Chad Christensen to the conversation. Welcome, Chad. Thanks for being here today on the B Shifter Podcast. You're you're traveling, so we're we're kind of midway through. We've we're talking about implementation right now and uh having the command officers and other decision makers within the department involved in it because nothing will screw a good program up than somebody who's a multiple bugle coming and saying, Well, I just don't believe in this, and then then it kind of turfs the whole thing. So I'm I'm glad to hear there's that connection. Uh Grady, did you have Grady unmuted for a second? Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 28:43

Oh no, I was just leaning in to listen to the conversation. Yeah, okay. I'm more of the behind the scenes just helping the corral the cats when it comes to class deliveries and uh work with these fine folks.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

Wanted to get a closer look because what Chad got on our coolness level just went up like I five Yeah, I actually was uh really taken aback.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

I had to get in closer and check out the shades, the aviators.

SPEAKER_07 29:09

Hey, sorry, and and uh sorry I'm layton. Uh thanks for having us. So yeah, no, to your point and the need for for management to have a you know to to be supportive of of this program or implementing change, like I can tell you, just living through it in LA County without the support of uh of upper management, without the support of the mid-level chief officers, it's a failure. And because when you cut when you bring it out to the fire ground and the chief officer shows up that doesn't agree with it, and then he starts working against the program, that can be disastrous for any organization. So yeah, definitely live through some of that with us not doing a great job of educating kind of our middle management in the beginning, and then once we started educating our folks when we were implementing door control and exterior attack, things got a lot better and a lot better acceptance and a lot better, better fireground for sure.

SPEAKER_05 30:07

So you guys talked about you know that first day and having that big conversation on the first day and and and sticking on the same slide for a couple of hours.

Live Fire Stations And Key Drills

SPEAKER_05 30:16

So beyond that, beyond the classroom, when when you start to get people connecting the motor skills to the to what they're seeing and starting to learn, what kind of stations or what kind of evolutions are there that uh you you you implement and you demonstrate?

SPEAKER_01 30:32

So we have multiple stations going going simultaneously. So for example, when we get to the psycho motor, we use the phase one for live fire dynamic behavior training, we'll use the host stream mechanics prop, we'll use the tower for search and rescue, drags, those types of things for it. And so we just are continually moving and keeping them rotating through those stations, thermal imaging. If they've got the class B fuel prop, then Mike works with that. And the idea is on day two and third, day two is for the most part, other than the the initial fire dynamics and behavior burn, the rest is non-IDL H. And then day three is all IDLH, right? And so as we've talked about before, the crawl lock run, and that's what we're really getting them to. Again, we want them to understand the mechanics because when we go and start burning, we want air entrainment. We want them to start seeing the neutral plane rising behind behind them. We want them to see, as Sean talked about, where water is just small amounts starting to get into that compartment where it is, what's the change being made, right? The flow and move. So we really want them to see it and experience it, have great visibility, and then apply it in that live fire environment on day three. Day four, if we haven't been able to get the burns in that we feel we need to, then we'll go ahead and do that. And then the rest of the day is that teach back and make sure that they really have a good solid understanding of the fire behavior and fire dynamics portion of the program, because obviously that's that's the foundation to it, right? If they're not able to communicate that, then then the rest is really going to be challenging with the hands-on uh with that. But please, guys, you guys all taught different stations, so please weigh in on the different things that that you get to do at the stations.

SPEAKER_09 32:13

I mean, I'll start with search if you want. You know, here local 2563, that's a big part of our culture. And we've uh done a lot of stuff with search. We have uh a ton of civilian rescues, and we use that experience to build our entire program off of all research-based stuff. So from the drags and carries, you know, we talk about uh everything that is in the actual research from the search study, talking about how the airways need to be low, right? So years ago we were taught these different carries where the you would drag somebody and their head might be up here as you grab underneath their arms, right? And now we're realizing that oh, actually it needs to be down below the one foot level. So we're showing people drags and uh moves and either a from a wrist lock to a leg lock and those type of things. And then, you know, after that we're doing window initiated search and door initiated search and having those conversations, which are have been definitely controversial in the past, but are clearly now all backed by research. And that's a huge piece. You know, uh working with Chris on 1700, you know, that was a we were very intentional on talking about window initiated search because we knew it was so controversial. And those are some of the things that we're you know putting forth in this class.

SPEAKER_06 33:22

Uh any of you other guys have experience yet, you know, what has your experience been with the the components you're teaching?

SPEAKER_07 33:28

I'd say the experience has been really, really positive. I think, you know, uh when we get out to the drill ground, you know, my first step is is doing the the live fire, uh, fire behavior piece, typically in a split cell container, ideally. And and really like I think the aha moment is a lot of times in that that problem because uh you know it's just it's a it's a controlled environment that we can really understand and and take the time to uh not only educate but the the students can observe like the impacts of uh the impacts of air, the impacts of air entrainment, the impacts of door control, and then you know the positive and negative impacts that uh a straight or solid stream can have in that environment, as opposed to as opposed to utilizing any sort of broken stream. And and then it gives gives us a great opportunity to after about a half hour in the box uh sit around and and have a conversation with the student and and really discuss things that they've seen or haven't seen before and they can relate it back to or we can relate it back to them, you know, to the fire ground. And you know, it doesn't matter if you're you're a brand new firefighter or a seasoned vet, you know, the opportunity or the reminder of of really what is going on in that fire environment is uh is pretty impactful. And then in addition to that, it's you know, we have the opportunity as well to to kind of help folks understand how to truly use those boxes because there's a lot of misinformation out there as to you know how to use a split cell box and and what the intent of a lot of those things are, you know, and and by no means are they intended to to be superheated or you know, or extremely hot or you know, or burn anybody, damaging the equipment. They're they're truly there as a as an educational tool, and we've had some great success with utilizing that that prop.

SPEAKER_08 35:31

Yeah, so on day three, I was focused on teaching uh fire attack, kind of a evolution tour at the end where they come in through the front door, advance to the hallway, flow and move down the hallway, which was a great chance to kind of put a bunch of things together. But the student, there was a student group that's just observing the fire attack happen using thermal imaging cameras, so they're able to take the knowledge that Mike shows them that they learned in the classroom, and then they show up, see in the small demonstration, and then watch the impacts of the flowing line, all the lessons about air entrainment, gas contraction, they get to really see it. And if we're able to place students like we were in Houston, essentially in or directly next to the fire room, they can see that aha move moment that Sean was talking about, where guys were literally sitting in the corner of the fire room, the lines coming and flowing. And you know, historically we all learned oh, a flowing line pushes heat while guys are sitting in the fire room, and then things around them are just cooling off. It's all getting better. And so just to just to put all those things together is just uh it's it's great on that fire attack evolution.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Yeah, I would say uh we'd use the you know small scale demonstrations with the Class B alcohol prop to really make sure we're all playing off the same sheet of music. When we talk about terminology, we bake in a lot of case studies into those demonstrations because they uh case studies have the uh unfortunate uh habit of being based in reality rather than the hypotheticals. So we're able to talk about that and show things that are easily repeatable and addressed. Some of my best, like my favorite moments are when people start that attend the class or or in the past, they start talking about fires or incidents that they had that maybe they just got a visual explanation. And it's stuff that nobody knows about. But the departments across this country, everyone has a near-miss, right? We always, you know, but they know it internally. Maybe it's not shared throughout the greater fire service because it wasn't a fatality, right? It didn't generate a NIOSH report, so we don't know. But I could say Harrishaw Street, and there's a couple of people whose the hair in the back of their neck are going to stand up because that was a close call for a lot. The thermal imaging component we talk about is foundational, lays down a lot of groundwork for limitations at just a part of the technology that we kind of are able to overcome with being proficient at operating that, but it's not thermal imaging for the sake of thermal imaging. It's a tool to support, uh, as Ian said, fire attack or uh Sean said, search and rescue, right? How can we use this to be a little bit more effective, a little bit more efficient, you know, operationally on the fire ground?

SPEAKER_06 38:16

John, what what have you seen in in your role?

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Yeah, so kind of building off what Mike just said, yeah, a lot of times in the FDNY, we were focused on the tragedy, you know, and that gets all the attention. It gets the safety command comes into play and they do a big investigation, everything. You know, and and what someone kind of said to us early on as we were implementing some of the research, either, you know, from the Governor's Island One uh research to the Governor's Island Two research, was you can't always just focus on the negative fires because in fact there's a lot of fires that actually go quite well. And especially with once uh this whatever department it may be ingests some of this uh evidence-based information, that you have to start tracking the successes as well as the tragedies so that you start to see, hey, you know, we had this fire, and uh members implemented door control, and you know what? They were able to actually accomplish their mission much better than not doing door control. Or there was a coordination in ventilation, or there was a lack of coordination in ventilation. Whatever it may be, when you start to really understand how this research kind of plays out and what it means and what it looks like on the fire ground, you start to capture those moments that, oh, we did this and it was a positive, you know, or we did this and it was a negative. Whatever it may be, it has to be documented. I and I know like with the FDNY, we we're still we we still have some growing pains. Every once in a while there's uh a fire that happens and then it's challenged again. But for the most part, we're actually doing the the a boot camp style two-day class, and the members are clamoring for it now because they're hearing through the grapevine from other members that attended it, you know, let's say, you know, first class, second class, third class, and they're like, oh, I want to be involved in it. I heard it was really good training. And then we look at the evaluations too. And I'm I know the evaluation that Jeff looks at. We see what the students are saying about the you know what they've learned. And like, my God, I, you know, I have 13 years in the fire department and I never heard any of this, or my God, you know, I'm I'm 20 years, or uh, we, you know, I I don't know if it was mentioned, you know, but we had uh one senior member from Houston that like you know has to he's rewriting his book now, which I think came out, I believe. And you know, he's like he was blown away. Blown away. So uh yeah, so that that's that's what the FDNY's seen. And it's we're getting, you know, you remember everyone always looks at the FDNY. We're just really big. Other than that, we're the same as everybody else. You know, we have the same problems, the same challenges, we're just on a larger scale, you know, which would actually helps us in some ways because we can gather a lot of data from the five boroughs, whereas if those were separated in separate departments, sometimes that communication never happens. So that's one of the pluses we have that actually helps uh the IAF or FSRI or whatever in in uh digesting this information and seeing what's actually happening in the field.

SPEAKER_06 41:24

What

Surprises, Humility, And Buy-In

SPEAKER_06 41:25

pleasant or positive surprises did you guys see in the first delivery that maybe you didn't anticipate or wouldn't wasn't necessarily a a foreseen thing? But looking back now, it's something that that happened and that it's it can be a focus or a component of the of the next classes. What what what what what do you guys what'd you guys see?

SPEAKER_03 41:46

One thing I saw maybe politically is um is the value of the partnership between the local and the department to put that class on.

SPEAKER_06 41:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:58

And there may have been some hesitation, or I don't want to use the word distrust because that would it's too harsh for a word. It's it's not some reservation, maybe, on okay, the IFF's coming to teach this class, but consequently, after the class delivery and the experience by the members, it really started building a relationship. And I think that's important. You guys, what are some of the surprises you guys had with this instructing the class? Because you guys were the hands-on.

SPEAKER_09 42:29

No, I'll be honest with you. I I went into Houston expecting to expecting a fight, right? To kind of get beat up a little bit. And uh Houston's a tough place. And I think the approach that we took from the very first day was really going after the senior members and respecting them for all of the experience that they have and the number of fires that they had. And you know, John talked about the one member who who just retired and wrote a book, and when he was done, he's like, This is the best strategy and Texas class I've ever been to. I have to rewrite my book. And so that was a pretty powerful message right there. For and this is a guy that when he came in the room, many people in the room got up to greet him and hug him and thank, and you know, we're happy to see him there. He's a very powerful individual in the Houston Fire Department. So that was one thing for for me personally that I left there with a big just sense of relief of like, man, this was awesome. I mean, honestly, a highlight of my career so far of being involved in something that's really, really powerful.

SPEAKER_07 43:23

Yeah, I gotta, I gotta reiterate what the way Sean's talking about too, because you know, it's it's very difficult to go into such a large organization and you know, these guys go to fires every single day. They've been doing it for 20, 30, you know, 40 years, you know, with with uh with the retired member. And who are we to tell them, you know, there's maybe a different way to look at things? And I I greatly appreciated their their openness, their willingness to uh be accepting and the aha moments and the passion that those guys and gals in that organization have. Of ensuring that they're doing what's best, not only for their members, but for for the uh the citizens that they serve, and for them to be able to recognize that hey man, maybe we're not doing things the best, and we can save more lives if we just uh change uh things a little bit here and there. And then we're constantly getting, you know, texts and and videos and and stuff of of successful implementations on the actual fire ground from you know from the class. And so, you know, again, a very, very big and very, very proud organization as they should be, and to see the changes on the fire ground, I I agree with Sean, like hands down, like this of of all my experiences in my career, uh, especially teaching wise, hands down the most impactful um of all of them. And it was it was phenomenal, it's a phenomenal group.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Yeah, I think there was a a a couple of things with it. One was the most senior company officers actually in the program, very well respected, extremely revered, right? And and how many of the firefighters and and drivers in the training that they had been a part of their crew at some point in time, trained them and so forth, and the humility that that they demonstrated during the class saying, Hey, I, you know, one when Captain Chapin, senior truck captain, after the host stream mechanics prop actually says, I want to take a moment and apologize to all of you. I, when you worked for me on an engine, I taught you a few things the wrong way. And so I owe that apology to you. And so to see that humility that someone who's so f well revered and respected had that aha moment in nine non-ideal age, even right with the Aaron treatment and those understandings. And so, like Sean and Chad talked about, and I think we all on the last day when we wrapped up, that was the biggest, we all had that common, like this probably is the most uh impactful training and education experience that we have ever had going into that. And I think the big thing too to think about is again, it it's just putting them in the middle of the science and the research. There had been attempts made previously to work with the Houston Fire Department on fire dynamics, fire behavior, and everything else. There wasn't that hands-on component, right? And and so again, that's where those hardcore veterans who know what they know, what they've seen, what they've seen, that type of stuff, now we're in that moment and they didn't have to be convinced by a book or a video. They've experienced it now themselves. And so again, that hands-on with the live fire training really was is the final notch. And I think that that's really where the the program has the value that it has, is that we're we're taking it from non-ideal age to ideal age. And again, we're telling them what we're gonna show them, what they're gonna experience, and they end up experiencing it themselves, right? And we don't have to do anything. The the physics and the science are is it is what it is, right? Doesn't matter if it's in a tower or in a single family dwelling, whatever it is, the results are gonna be the same. And so I think that that's the the big opportunity that this program is is bringing is that component of that live fire that's letting them now be in the middle of it.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

I think everyone, all of the the group is extremely cognizant to always square the experience of the attendees with the science, right? If we fail that, then we take that that member that's 20, 30 years on the line that and you oh, I'm gonna fly in and tell you that you've been doing it wrong for 30 years. We know that experience is you know temporal, it changes with position, place, and the space, right? You're in the front of the building and it's clear as day. I go around the the the Charlie side and it's sailing from the mudsill to the roof line. Completely different look. So the the group is extremely cognizant of that. And I mean, I call myself a coach, not an instructor. Like professional athletes have coaches, right? A tweak here, a tweak there, just to get an order of magnitude better to have to improve, not to wash out everything and we're gonna build you up from scratch. That's not the intent. It's to really refine and square the science with the experience, and everything is evidence-based, not just you know, what I said, what I say goes.

SPEAKER_06 48:24

Ian, anything for you from your experience?

SPEAKER_08 48:26

I mean, I guess that would echo a lot of what these guys say, and and just something I always try to keep in mind whenever I'm teaching, is that the folks in the fire service they want to do a good job, right? We all are motivated by the same things to protect lives and property. We want to save victims, we want to go home to our families, and they just want to have the information and the experience to be able to do that. And as long as we as instructors, and something that's been super humbling to be surrounded by all these folks teaching the class, it's just everyone's really good at saying, hey, this is this is gonna help you, and this is how I can respect you and help you at the same time. So I think that's and then the progression that Jeff and Sean and the IAF came up with, I think that plus the instructor Todd and the respect we provide to the folks, it's it kind of makes it easy. And if it if it works in Houston, right, you know it, you know it works well.

SPEAKER_06 49:24

Yeah, I think it's it's interesting that Houston is the you know the the the foundational or the first time this gets delivered. And and a lot of props go to Houston and and the local and the department for bringing bringing you all in to do that. And it's not a place where you're just gonna come in and blow them over with with with your experience because they're they're they've got their own, right? And so the strength, at least that I see from the outside looking in, is the this is a legitimate group with a legitimate program and with the kind of the the mindset of how to deliver it. And as Mike said, the coaching and the and the the respect you're offering, and I I see this being highly successful everywhere, which is a pretty cool thing.

SPEAKER_03 50:13

Chris, I want to emphasize that that this class, we've talked a lot about Houston during this hour. This never would have happened without the support and the leadership of Chief Munoz and his team. They they, you know, they understood that they wanted to bring this research into their department. They worked with Marty Langton, the president of Local 341, Gabe Dominguez, and together they brought this program here. And we talk a lot about Houston because they're such a respected department and they have a lot of experience. So I really want to make sure that we recognize the you know the leadership of the chief and his staff in Local 341 to make this happen.

SPEAKER_06 50:58

Absolutely. Thank you.

How To Bring The Class Home

SPEAKER_05 51:02

Guys, before we we wrap this up, because the last thing I want to get into is just how to connect your membership to this program. And we will have a link to that the webpage that describes it and it also gets the contact information in the show notes. So if you're interested in this program, you can go to our show notes or go to b shifter.com on the website page and and we'll be able to share that information with you. But what before we go, what what else do you guys want the listeners to know about this program and connecting to it?

SPEAKER_09 51:33

I think for me it's to realize that this is it's not just like Mike said, it's not our opinion, right? Like this is coming from the evidence. Like everything that we're saying, we're backing it up with the evidence. It's all there directly comes from the FSRI research. And so for me, that's one of the most powerful things, right? And a lot of times in the class, I'll say, listen, this class is gonna make you faster, smarter, safer, and even more aggressive on the fire ground because we're showing you this research-backed stuff that all of the fire dynamics and the principles that are gonna allow you to be more effective on the fire ground. And uh, you know, hopefully by the end of the class, people will start to realize that.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

Yeah, I I I would say that the same thing. And and the the bottom line is as we all know, the mission that all of us have taken on in the fire service is it's not about us, it's about them. And this actually makes it probably the scales, you know, balancing the scales out, tipping it in in the favor of getting the job done, of getting to civil uh civilians and to victims and getting them out of the building, you know, as quickly as possible and getting them off DMS so that they can be administered to and save lives. So it's it's about them, it's about saving lives. It's not about you know not being aggressive, it's not about standing on the front lawn and just flowing water for three hours, right? It's nothing, nothing like that. So anyone think that's the issue, yeah. I uh, you know, uh everything we teach does make a safer operation, right? But it's evidence-based and it's about them.

SPEAKER_03 53:09

Yeah, I think from from my perspective, the goal of the program is to inform the membership. As Sean articulated and John articulated, John can't hear me, so he can't hear me compliment him, right? I just want to make sure that's clear.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

I can't, I can that oh darn.

SPEAKER_03 53:25

But anyway, he heard that. Yeah, as they articulate it, it's it's it's not about making our firefighters less aggressive, it's about making informed decisions on the fire ground. And fire is predictable, it's based on science. And if you understand the basics of science of our work environment, then you can start to understand or be able to predict what action or what reaction is going to happen by your actions, and it makes uh you know it makes the firefighter better informed, and a better informed firefighter is making better decisions.

SPEAKER_02 54:00

Uh, anybody that's skeptical should come out to the program and would like to be able to get rid of your skepticism. Those of you that have only maybe done research on on your own, taken some of the online classes, read a PDF or a file, come on out. We'll show you how to functionalize it and put go from a theoretical concept to a hands-on task that you can implement at the company level, uh, keep your tactics tight and be difficult to injure and impossible to kill on the fire ground.

SPEAKER_06 54:27

Outstanding. Anything else you guys want to cover? Because I don't I do not want to leave anything hanging out.

SPEAKER_07 54:35

Uh I would argue that that you know uh the the in-person class, uh, every time that you know any sort of conversation is had, right, it it uh it helps to translate FSRI's research for the people because they uh reading the studies, uh understanding the educational material that's that's online, it's only one side of it. And so when you can have conversations with with folks that have implemented change in their organizations or understand the material to a different level, and you know, we can all speak kindergarten based on our kindergarten educations, then you know, it it becomes really positive. And I would also argue that that you know you can be more aggressive on the fire ground and put your folks in places that you never thought possible, as long as you understand the fire dynamics piece, as long as you understand the water application piece, and you understand that the training environment and their live and the real fire environment, the more effective you're gonna be, the more lives you're gonna save, the more property you're gonna save on the fire ground.

SPEAKER_05 55:31

How do we get folks connected with the program? We're gonna give that information, but just what what candidates are you guys looking for to find other places to take this? Are you looking for uh larger cities? Are you looking for locals to come together and regionalize the training? And and really uh how do they take that next step to bring that training to them?

SPEAKER_03 55:51

Email Grady. I want all the emails to go to Grady, but no, no, I hey, I I encourage uh departments of any size, right? We you know, unfortunately, it costs money to get our instructors there to put the class on, and so we we have to cover those costs. But if departments want to look at re you know, combining their resources to host a class, we're more than happy to accommodate that. If a larger department wants to bring the class in, we're we're happy to do that. We're happy to consider options, right? What is the best way to do this? And I think Jeff mentioned it a little bit earlier. We are looking at potentially developing regional spots where we can have those on a regularly scheduled program where a department can send one or two members in, and maybe that is more cost effective for them. So, yeah, if if you have any questions, please reach out to us. If you have some different options you want to try out, we're open to that as well.

SPEAKER_06 56:56

Knowing a little bit about training dollars, this class is not an expensive class. Like looking at at what it would cost, so uh man, I I see it being within reach for so many different reasons.

SPEAKER_05 57:11

Well, what a fascinating conversation, Chris. I I'm really looking forward to seeing this uh program rolled out across the United States or North America, probably. I mean, extending into Canada, I'm sure. Thanks for bringing them on today. I I think as far as the evidence-based research and the fire ground operations, tying the two together is just a winner. So I'm really glad that they had this program and very grateful for the folks who took time to be here today to talk to us about it.

SPEAKER_06 57:39

Yeah, I it was really cool that they wanted to to share it here and they they chose to share it here. You know, they asked us, which is that's that's that's kind of cool from my perspective at the very least, that that we're that we can we can intro that for them. And it is an important project. And and just some of the relationships that I have with the with the instructors from this program, they are the real deal. They they and they've been doing it a long time and they've refined it and figured it out and and they walk the walk, right? We all know that our the best instructors that we've all had in our careers are the ones with when they're doing the work, they're walking the walk. And that's that's no doubt that group.

SPEAKER_05 58:20

Well, before we go, Timeless Tactical Truth.

Timeless Tactical Truth And Closing

SPEAKER_05 58:32

Timeless Tactical Truth from Alan Brunicini, and that book is available at uh bshifter.com. And today's Timeless Tactical Truth. It's hard to put into words stuff that can't be expressed in words. Seeing is believing, and and that's really what these guys are talking about. You know, we have these conventional ways that we were trained, or what used to work 20 years ago, maybe worked really well for us then, but isn't working these days because of fire behavior, particularly with the way that our furnishings and buildings are constructed. But being able to show somebody what you can't put into words, or maybe the words that they don't even believe.

SPEAKER_06 59:16

Yeah, it it is kind of incredible, but that's I really think the value of what they're doing and what they've chosen to kind of put together. The the cool part is they the the FSRI and the instructors and the IFF, because they supported it, right? They learned a ton from the FSRI boot camps and and what what was strong and what worked well and what was the what was the the the things that actually moved the needle for firefighters. Well, now they're able to take that, plug it into more functional things on the drill ground with live fire to be able to demonstrate it. And it becomes very difficult for people, humans, just in general, right? To to not be able to be more readily understanding of, oh, that's what they were talking about. And I will tell you, we all have had experiences that don't aren't can't be you know very well explained, or the science it hadn't been uh very well explaining it. And but there isn't an explanation for it. And now that there's more research and more information about it, they're doing a better job of plugging that together so people can see and maybe experience what was previously unexplainable and now have somebody smart, credible, all those things sit there and explain it to them and help them figure it out. And then they turn around and do it themselves. And you know, they're almost like, holy shit, that worked. Yeah, well, that's it wasn't by accident. It that's that it worked because of physics and because of chemistry and those things. So yeah, I think it's kind of kind of kind of entertaining how how we are as humans and firefighters uh in that way.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:03

Right. I'd like to thank our co-host Chris Stewart as well as Grady Valencez, John DeCrane, Jeff Seaton, Chad Christensen, Sean Gray, Michael McCarthy, Ian Bennett, and John Cerillo all for being on the B Shifter Podcast today and uh sharing their knowledge and talking about this uh new great program from the IFF. You can reach out to us in the show notes if you have any questions or if you want more information on that. Until next time, thank you so much for listening to the Bee Shifter Podcast.