B Shifter
Fire command and leadership conversations for B Shifters and beyond (all shifts welcome)!
B Shifter
Strategic Shifts
This episode features Josh Blum, Chris Stewart, and John Vance.
We break down two fireground audios from Springdale, OH and Cobb County, GA where command changes strategy before the buildings force the issue. Clear size-ups, clean handoffs, and disciplined use of divisions and on-deck show how standardized command-and-dispatch integration protects crews and closes incidents faster.
• Springdale strip mall fire and regional standardization
• Early 360, TLO assignments, and exposure checks
• Roof report triggers proactive defensive switch
• Dispatch integration with alert tones and tickets
• Cobb County garage fire with extension and collapse
• On-deck, water supply, and search coordination
• Strategic shift timing based on structural integrity
• After Action Reviews for shared learning across agencies
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Hello and welcome to the Beat Shifter Podcast. I'm John Vance, your host. We'd like to welcome you here today, coming up with incident audio on two strategic shifts. Stand by for that. Also, we're going to talk to uh Josh and Chris. They're going to join me in just a few seconds here and give us a preview of what's going on in early 2006 with Blue Card. Now we have with us Josh Bloom and Chris Stewart. Josh Bloom is the program manager for Blue Card. Chris Stewart, our curriculum manager for Blue Card. The last podcast we did, I didn't even I didn't even acknowledge Chris. So I I feel bad. I apologize to you for that, Chris. You need full for me.
SPEAKER_02:It's probably better for everybody because I don't get acknowledged.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we want to acknowledge you. You you you certainly bring a lot of your brain power to this group today. Today we are going to get into some audio from two separate incidents, one in Ohio, one in Georgia. So stand by for that. Some great examples as we like to play for you on the B Shifter podcast of some successful operations of what right looks like. And we'll have some notes on those as we play the audio. But before we get going, Josh, we have a lot of classes on the calendar. Many are filling up, many are full. What do we have on the horizon here in 2026 for Blue Card?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it's it is filling up pretty quickly already. We got classes booked. We got some classes booked all the way out through the end of 2026 already. So we have we have plenty of depth to deliver multiple classes in the same week, but you know, at some point, you know, it's just availability when you want to do something may not be available. So Ocala, Florida, we got a big box workshop scheduled. There is seats open in that, and we're only gonna probably do two other ones besides the ones we have posted already. The one in Cincinnati's already sold out. Ocala's got seats open in it, and then we're gonna be doing one or two out in Colorado on the on the west, you know, towards the west coast, so that we can try to you know get those delivered regionally so it make it a little easier for folks to travel and so on. And then all of our train the trainer classes, the the on-the-road ones fill up, you know, very quickly. And then we have open seats in the Phoenix classes, but as all the other classes fill, those seats end up filling up quickly too. So you can find our entire list of classes posted on the B at B shifter.com and you know see what's what's available, what's not available. And then if you're looking to host a class, the sooner you reach out, the the more flexibility and availability we'll have to meet your needs and whatever dates you're looking to have a class.
SPEAKER_01:So well, specifically uh Ocala, Florida, we're gonna be there March 12th and 13th, and then also that bowling green, Ohio class, which we're going to be in bowling green on March 23rd and March 24th. So get on to Beatshifter.com, find your dates, find the one by you, and get signed up. As Josh said, they they do fill up. And uh especially with the limited availability of the big box classes, because Shane Ray only has so many dates that he can give us because he does an entire day with us. So when they're here, they're here, and then once they're gone, they're gone, right? Yep. All right, and then the train the trainer classes out of the AVBCTC, which is always a good learning experience for everyone. Uh, anything else going on, Josh? As far as the program goes. The two of us will be on a webinar at the end of the month. So we we've been teasing that out a little bit. We're going to announce the webinar this week, and it's for all blue card instructors. If you're not an instructor, you're welcome to listen in, but it's really meant for blue card instructors because we have some tweaks and updates that we do. You always say that we live in command function number seven where we're revising. So we'll be going through some of those revisions, especially how we're tying in the after action review, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So during this last uh three or four weeks, when you know, around the holidays, Chris Stewart and and the group did not take much time for the holidays, though. We got to spend time with the families and eat and hang out and all of that. That's all good. But we did the group did a ton of work on just updating and refining how we deliver the train the trainer, updating curriculum, updating all the material that kind of goes with the train the trainer, updating the three-day cert lab. And Chris, I'll just push it to you for this. But our focus was making sure that we are current and that we're delivering standardized training that is you know connected back to resources and best practice.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so there's so much stuff that happens kind of simultaneously inside the fire service that in influences and impacts anything anybody is teaching, quite honestly. So our goal with you know that that thought of living in command function seven is to you know constantly re-reviewing and revising and what can we do to actually improve the instruction that we give to our students or the folks that are going to be instructors? And then how do we help them better be better instructors themselves to be able to deliver that? So there's no like drastic changes to what we're teaching, but we've found areas where we can refine things, explain them better, plug in new information, and make it more relevant for the students and the instructors really to go out and be able to teach their folks, right? It's a difficult thing, it's a difficult transition a lot of times for folks to be, no, I'm I'm I'm just somebody in the class who's learning how to do something, where in our train the trainers, now you're learning how to be the instructor and you're learning how to answer the hard questions and deal with the rock throwers and and and all those other things. So, what are the things that we can put into the program to assist their understanding of the system, that to assist their why within the system and then how they actually teach? So that really was our focus, and uh I think we've been reasonably successful with that. And and literally Monday morning, we're gonna start uh JV and Sean and Tim are gonna start teaching uh, you know, the with the new material. So we're we're ready to jump.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and then just uh hit it real quick, the AAR program that that just continues to be refined and grow. And more and more organizations, once they do one or two after action reviews in there, then they're they kind of you know are hooked on it because it's really easy for us to to measure success by nothing went wrong and nobody got hurt and so on. But the AR just it just gives you an opportunity to dive deeper into the audio, look at video, your procedures, policies, and evaluate, you know, where were we doing well and reinforce that behavior and where can we improve? And the Springdale audio that we're gonna listen to, uh Springdale Fire Department does after actions on I think everything above, like electrical fires. So a lot of lessons, a lot of lessons learned and lots of lessons reinforced. So in this one, there's their office chief wrote a whole page of this is maybe some things we should consider and do better. And then they wrote a whole page on this is what we did well and that what we need to continue to do. So we we're using this audio because they kind of reached out to us and sent it to us and said, hey, you can you can use this, and it's got a strategic shift in it, so we'll we'll work through and walk through that. But it's not just learning for that fire department. The nice thing in the Southern Ohio area is the way the AAR set up that once it's complete, Springdale Fire Department can send that entire report to everybody who was at the incident, and and everybody can learn from it. So they can't modify it or anything, but it's a you know, review-only document and data that all goes together and breaks the incident down from all the way from the 911 call until you know you leave, and then even afterwards, you know, adding in you know, investigation components, the lessons learned, and and reinforcing the behavior we want to see. So great.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I was with a group of blue card instructors today, and out of 15 or 18, only two of them are actually using the AR. So we we talked a lot about that this morning. And we want to encourage people to use this tool that they have. It's a powerful tool for continuous improvement within your organization. So please use that AAR tool because it will help you improve and it will also help you reinforce the great behaviors that you have within your department. So, on the first one, what are we going to listen to here? This is Springdale, Ohio. Yeah, so you want to set this up?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Springdale, Ohio, it's a city fire department. They run an engine tower medicine station. They're just a one-station fire department. At this incident, I think there were seven or eight different fire departments dispatched to it because that's how they that's how they meet their you know, standard response numbers for whatever the building type would be. And, you know, fortunately in this region, most everybody out of 46 fire departments, I think 40 of them have pretty much so fully engaged with Blue Card, have standardized policies, procedures, guidelines. And it even jumps the county line now, which is even better that it's going into the county just north and just east of the county that the city of Springdale is in. So, you know, everybody operating under one plan, you know, before it's even dispatched. So everybody's using the same system to manage the fire ground, and everybody has the same standardized SOGs when they operate on the fire ground from accountability to strategic shift to communications, using tickets on the radio, the just the whole blue card system. So on this incident, the fire's about maybe a block and a half or two blocks from the firehouse. The district chief actually arrives there first with his engine, does the initial radio report, and communicates to the engine some information of what he wants to happen. Really, that was just based on him having some other information from having a better view of the building before they got there, and also the the layout of this building and where it sits on the street as far as leaving access open for other apparatus to be able to get into the incident. So we we hear that sometimes. Well, what if the chief gets there first? And we've had probably 50% of the audio we've used was the chief got there first, and 50% of it is, you know, a company's there, and maybe he assigns three or four or five companies before the chief gets there. So the the system works either way. And we're all the fire department, but there's still not very many fire departments that are exactly the same when it comes to you know geographing and how they're laid out and you know, response area and do they have chiefs, do they not have chiefs, all of that stuff. So as we listen to this, you'll hear several other chiefs arrive and get assigned to you know different positions, and all of those chiefs are coming from other mutual aid fire departments. And one thing we hear a lot about the blue card system is we can't get that resource there to fill that tactical level. And you know, Nick Brennicini always says, well, draw a box around your response area as big as the Phoenix Metro is, and I guarantee you you have more chiefs available than the Phoenix Fire Department does. And I haven't really been anywhere where that wasn't the case because you you just have to work with your neighbors and you know make the next step. They don't have to be right next door to you. You don't they don't all have to be there in five minutes. It's you know, as the incident escalates, we assign those folks. And then this incident has a a strategic shift in it because the they identify that the roof is not not intact and that they don't want people operating under it. So we'll kind of talk about that. And really, this whole podcast will we'll talk about the whole system, but it'll highlight a little bit more about strategic shifts because both of these audio clips we're going to use have strategic strategic shifts in them. One in a commercial building strip mall, the other in a residential single family home.
SPEAKER_06:So District 90 on scene, single story, medium-sized strip, working structure fire, fire on the Charlie side. District 90 will have command, offensive strategy, standby for 360, engine, lay-in. You want to the Charlie side? 9601 level one. 9601 come the car. Engine 90 command. We're making a flip on north one. We're gonna hit this. Tiger will lay in so if you want us to drive to the Charlie. You can come to the Delta side. Tower 90 is level one. RP advises everybody's out. Tower 9. Tower 90. Gonna assign you search. Follow engine 90 on the Charlie side. Tower 90, search on the Charlie side. 4501 on level one. 4501, I'm gonna give you Charlie. You'll have engine 90. Taking a handline to the Charlie side, tower ninety performing search. I'm playing around engine 90 on the Charlie side. Tower 90 on the side. Ladder 96 on team, level one. Command 2, all incoming units, 360 is complete. Working fire on the Charlie side, remaining offensive strategy. Commando ladder 96, I'm gonna send you to the Alpha. Exposure. Bravo exposure, I'm gonna search.
SPEAKER_03:Go ahead.
SPEAKER_06:Command clear. Gonna knock on it. There is a color change in the smoke. Tower ninety is setting up. I'm gonna sign the next incoming unit to take a look at their roof.
SPEAKER_08:Tower ninety command.
SPEAKER_06:Go ahead for command. Tower ninety, you're gonna go to the Bravo 2 exposure. Check for extension. Tower ninety is the other command. We can do the throttle. We got people trying to answer the structure. Command is quick. I'll advise county.
SPEAKER_04:County copy, speeding to the front.
SPEAKER_06:Commander tower ninety. Pull a second line off engine ninety. I'm gonna redirect you. Pull a second line. Assist engine ninety with fire attack. Charlie side.
SPEAKER_08:Charlie, man, what's an update?
SPEAKER_06:Go ahead.
SPEAKER_08:We do have more on the fire of the interior. However, we do have active fire on the roof, so there's in the roof one.
SPEAKER_06:Engine forty is stage level one. Also level one. District forty level one. District forty, I'm gonna have you take alpha. You'll have ladder ninety-six working for you. Engine forty, lay a second supply line. You're gonna lay it in the tower ninety. We're gonna flow water off of tower ninety under the roof.
SPEAKER_05:District forty is clear, I'll let you know when I'm gonna play alpha with ladder ninety six.
SPEAKER_06:Ladder forty two level one phase. Move your crew forward. I'm gonna have you operate off of tower ninety. Engine forty is gonna lay in the tower ninety.
SPEAKER_08:And engine forty one I'm gonna send you to the bravo side check for extension all the way at the end.
SPEAKER_06:Clear on pulling water off tower ninety. Charlie the command. Go ahead. I'll need an extra company here, uh Charlie's side to go on deck with me. I also recommend getting some crews inside with some longer hooks to help open this up and see if I can get it from the inside. You're clear. Ladder 42. Move your crew forward. You're gonna be on deck. Bring your rat back, Charlie side. Ladder 42 clear. Bring right back.32 level one.32. I'll have you move forward. Charlie side. Bring hooks. Yeah, letter 96 working for you, checking the browser exposure. All active fire on the roof is out. Just wanna verify uh we can have a fire out before we kill this back at all. Command's clear, active fire on the roof. Appears out. Checking for extension.
SPEAKER_05:Alpha command.
SPEAKER_06:Go ahead.
SPEAKER_05:We have an all clear in the Bravo exposure.
SPEAKER_06:Nothing showing in there. Clear on Bravo exposure being clear. Which unit are you? Alpha coverage for reference from ladder 94. Command's clear. I'd like to get a unit into each exposure. Make sure they're clear. Alpha's clear. Ladder 96 has water. We're requesting reassignment. Command alpha. Go for alpha. Sending you ladder 42 to assist in assessing the exposures. Alpha clear. Engine 93 level one. 286 command for roof report.
SPEAKER_03:Go ahead for command.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, we do have a small little active fire stuff here. Command clear, small active fire. On the roof line. Roof appears compromised. Commander Charlie. Okay, the interior fire appears to be knocked down. Let's pull our crews out. We'll flow water from the bucket. Okay, it's clear and that'll pull everybody out. Coming up for Medic 90 info only. We got one page and we're returning to our vehicle to that. Command is clear to make 90. We have water in tower ninety, we're requesting reassignment. Command is clear, tower to water ninety, requesting reassignment. Here we are report to alpha assistant assessing the Bravo exposures. Reporting alpha Alpha. Command County.
SPEAKER_04:County, go ahead. Command go ahead.
SPEAKER_06:Give me alert tones. We're gonna be switching to defensive and the fire occupancy. Command clear. Command all use on the fire ground. We're in defensive and the fire occupancy. Defensive mode and the fire occupancy. We're gonna be blowing water from tower ninety onto the roof to extinguish what's left of it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so just to kind of recap this, so it's probably eight or nine different fire departments that are that were dispatched to this. Uh so Springdale Fire Department, they have a working fire response in the county dispatch system. So as soon as you say work and fire in the county, they assign a dispatcher. That's that was huge progress for us in our region here because two years ago you would never get a dispatcher on the TAC channel. And as we listen to this, we can talk about it further. But there was there's big value in that of them being able to engage and us being able to connect, you know, right to the dispatcher and then having that communications of when when should they break in on the radio if they have something for us? But you know, really the active listening of what do all these terms mean? And you know, when just as an example, when command called for emergency traffic change and strategies, you know, they were right on it. Like there was no question, there wasn't like a I gotta pull a book out, whatever. And that doesn't happen by accident. And you know, Chief Williams, the ops chief there at Springdale, you know, does a lot of work with us with Blue Card, and you know, he does a whole presentation on don't say your capabilities, the capability's not there if you haven't engaged your dispatch system or dispatch center to you know actually talk to them and say, you know, what can you do, what can't you do? So I just wanted to put that out there. Uh so you know, he got there first, gave a size up. Another chief was in the area, and he had that chief come to the car. So nobody in our region has drivers. So, you know, we fill out that with the other response chief. So, yeah, you heard I think seven different chiefs on the radio, but we don't we pair those chiefs up so that we end up with support officer with the IC, and then anywhere that where there's a division assigned. As we went through kind of the assignments, you know, engine 90 was doing fire attack, and then he assigned the tower from his same station to search that occupancy space through the same door that engine 90, you know, went through. There was actually a person that had been sleeping there but was out of the building when they got there. So that later on in the communications where that's where that came from that Medic 90 had had a patient, but they they were indeed out of the building. I always put this out there on this live audio because people were like, man, there's a lot of radio traffic. And what we listened to in, I think 12 minutes was like 25 or so at least 25 minutes of of audio. So, you know, the IC was going through, you know, what's going on, what are the critical factors, what's my incident action plan, what do I need to do with companies? So there was there was this was the end of the row unit, so there was only exposures on that one side. So, you know, right away tried to get somebody to start getting into those spaces to check and make sure that that they were getting all clears. I I want to go back just for a second. So the power of of the system in the training is the the the IC that was in District 90 is a company officer that rides the engine probably probably every shift except for six or seven shifts in a year. So he was he was riding up that day. So you know it's a different position, but he did a nice job, and and you can kind of push that all back to the system, right? That we all get trained and use the same system. So whether you were sitting in the engine or whether we were sitting in that car, everybody's you know trained the same way on the same page. But my point there is when you tell somebody what you want them to do and you train them to do it, you know, you you get good performance typically out the other side of it. You can't just say, Oh, the the chief's off today. So your company officer, you're gonna ride in the car today, just go figure it out. So beyond that, you know, we we heard we heard all those other assignments. There was a lot of companies, you know, you know, going into level one and all that, but again, that was you know in a in a very compressed time frame. Um, some pretty good information, you know, from Charlie. So command assigned Charlie, gave him a couple companies. That was kind of a forecasting thing of where's the work happening, how many people are back there. He couldn't see what was going on back there from where he was positioned. So getting a division boss into that place because there was going to be, you know, two, three, four, five, six companies assigned back there, you know, doing work, and he got a support officer assigned, you know, with with that division. And then, you know, the fire attack and the primary unit was being taken care of. So he he then gave some focus to getting all clears and all of those other units. And the easiest way for him to do that was well, he got one unit into there, but then as soon as he got another chief, he assigned somebody to alpha. But their assignment was to get an all-clear of all the rest of those units all the way down the building. So if you didn't have extension in the first one, you probably don't have extension in any of the other ones, but just making sure that there was no occupants, you know, in any of those units at that point. And then the information from the roof report, right? So they they come on with a roof report and that they have fire, they do have fire on the roof, and the fire was multiple HBAC units and a hood system there. So the roof is the integrity was already weak, but the fire had run up and gotten above the ceiling tiles and it had been burning for a while. So the integrity of the roof was was not good. So, you know, you made the decision of we got it all clear, there's nobody into there, we got most of the fires knocked down. There's no there's no reason for us to risk putting anybody inside of there if we can do whatever we're gonna do from from outside. So he he made this strategic shift. So that's kind of just a little bit of a rundown of as you listen to it, what happened and kind of reinforcing you know the things that went well. One thing we can always talk about is you know, using tickets. So our communications really fit into you know status change or priority traffic, unless the unless the IC is asking for a CAN report. So the more we can use tickets, the clearer the communications will be. So the example when they gave the roof report, it's like, okay, here comes a roof report, but everybody's listening for a roof report. No different than when they were changing occupancy spaces or they're they were complete with an assignment, and they came on and said with a CAN report, but really with a status change that we have an all clear of that unit, we're ready for reassignment. So it's that word of that ticket, right? And the value of using the tickets, if you will, that what we call them of you know, status change, priority traffic, just like we say mayday, mayday, mayday, just like we pull up on the scene and say engine one on the scene with an initial radio report, we preface that traffic so that everybody knows what's coming out. And the IC can prioritize, prioritize those communications based on what's being said on the radio. So if somebody said priority, if somebody used a ticket and said priority traffic, but somebody else said status change, well, we're we're listening to the priority traffic first. So it's that kind of lines up with that one, two, three progress reporting that we talk about a little bit. Chris, do you have any uh thoughts on this audio?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I'm sitting here listening to it, and and as as we get started here, I pull up our evaluation sheets, right? And so we when in in our system, we've got an evaluation sheet for IC1, IC2 support officer, and senior advisor. So so with with the the chief showing up first, right? There's a little bit of a blend of here. They play IC1 for a minute and then and then they quickly transition to the the role of IC2. So when you look at the high-level things here that I'm paying attention to when listening to an IC, is up front, did the IC appear to have a clear idea of what's actually going on and what the critical fire ground factors were? I think the answer is simply yes. He he did. He understood that. Did he confirm, verify, reinforce that with getting a 360 to better support uh the initial incident action plan? Yeah, he absolutely did, right? He he got completed a 360, communicated what was going on. There was no real change to the system other than they know he he did know where the fire was, you know, with some more certainty, right? And then he built his incident action plan around that. Did the IC know and understand the position and function of everybody on the fire ground? Yeah, absolutely they did. He did. He because he communicated clearly with task location objective, had a support officer there with him helping keep track of it, and knew where the work was happening and knew where he needed to, you know, put folks as they progressed through this to be able to get fire control and and all clears in the exposures. And then he finished off that part of it with the roof report, the signing folks up there to get that last component of understanding, especially in these commercial fires, is what's going on with that roof. Because it's if it ain't safe enough to be on, it ain't safe enough to be under typically. So he he gets that information and reinforces it. And then once he has a better, more complete view of it, that's when he makes a decision. All right, there is nothing left in that fire occupancy that that we're going to be able to effectively save. So I'm gonna change, I'm gonna change the incident strategy here from offensive to defensive, utilizing a standard process. And and like Josh said, I'm gonna compliment that dispatcher and I'm gonna and and and I thoroughly agree that that doesn't happen by accident. That's there's a lot of effort that goes into having a dispatcher be able to, you know, as quickly and as seamlessly react to that, communicate effectively. That those weren't the first times she said those words, right? And and and it and it was it was clear to everybody on the fire ground what was actually happening. And and and oftentimes they're aside from a Mayday, there's very little traffic that's more important than a than a strategic shift. So, you know, that was really nice. So when we look at this holistically and and give us the ability to answer the questions, were they in a good position if somebody would have said prior to traffic, we got a victim? Yeah, they were in a good position. They had people in the right places, they had folks on deck providing some tactical reserve, and that tactical reserve serves a lot of different capacities. And then the then the maybe the bigger question is were they in a good, as good a position as they could have been if they would have heard Mayday, Mayday, Mayday? And the answer is yes, right? Because because of those same reasons, they had people in the right place doing the right work that could account for them through position and function, and they had tactical reserve in place that could have supported that Mayday operation if they needed to from the exterior, as well as those companies on the interior utilizing that help board. So when we look at these, you know, holistically, really from the strategic or the policy level, quite honestly, you know, senior advisor level. If I'm showing up as a senior advisor on this incident, I'm really happy. I'm actually gonna get in the back of the rig or get in the command van or wherever the heck they are, and I'm gonna sit there and be quiet because they have control of things and things are happening, and I don't have anything to add to this to support them until I do, right? And so I'm not gonna get in the way. And that's a that's a really nice feeling showing up as a as a senior advisor in this.
SPEAKER_01:I I think this shows how a region can come together. A lot of times when we start talking about dispatch levels, deployment, working with dispatch, having plenty of chiefs on the scene, people just say, Oh, we can't do that because we don't respond that way. There was a time, I'm sure, in Hamilton County you didn't get those levels. I know in Hennepin County you didn't get those levels. I know in Indiana you didn't get those levels, but you work towards it, right? You you start talking to your neighbors and say, hey, we can use more chiefs on the scene. This is why we're doing blue card. You explain it same on the resource level. And the same thing with working with dispatch. You know, that that that relationship with dispatch takes years to cultivate, and and sometimes it takes a little while for for them to, you know, monitor the tax channel and be a part of that. But you guys got there because that was your goal, and you guys built the system to eventually do now what a one-station fire department is now capable of doing something that a five or seven station fire department traditionally could do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it yeah, like you guys said, it none of that happens by accident, and it wasn't without you know pushback because the fire service, you know, doesn't want to change. But when you get all of those people on board, and then you get folks saying, Well, there is nothing else. And you know, and I always say, if not this, then what? And they did people just look at you like you're crazy, and it's like, well, I'm like, if not this, then what? So just to put it out there, in this county, the the working group has the working group and the chiefs have put together minimum requirements that if you're gonna ride in that car, whether you're the chief or you're in a ride up and you're riding in the car, in order for you to fill out to fill the actual position, just because you're in the car don't mean shit. It's the it's the capability and the training that goes along with it. So they they have to be blue card certified. They suggest that they're hazmat ICs through Blue Card. They have to have the Mayday workshop, they have to have the big box workshop, they have to have the division ops workshop, and then we have a list of other classes. They have to have the company officer decision-making class, the thermal imaging class, and a few others, but that takes this entire region and makes it operationally much more like one agency instead of 46 different fire departments. And if you add the next county, it's you know, like 70 different fire departments, but operating much closer together. And, you know, we still have and we always will have work to do, but it had to start somewhere. And if you would have, you know, listened to any of this six or seven or eight years ago, it it wouldn't have sounded anything like this. But everybody's getting on the same page with you know that same goal in mind and operating under, you know, one incident action plan. So and our dispatchers are all our dispatch, the the director in charge of the dispatch center is totally committed to training all of their dispatchers with the blue card dispatcher program. So that just ties it in that much better because they know in some cases, they hear things that maybe we don't hear on the fire ground. So that's a nice, you know, backup of you know, did you hear this? Not that they're gonna engage in the middle and and cut in if they if if if when things are going right, but if they hear a transmission two or three times, they might call command and say, hey, did you hear engine whoever's you know transmission? And you know, it's okay. Whereas before, they weren't gonna listen at all because they weren't even on the channel, because nobody ever asked them to even be on the channel. So, yeah, a lot of progress with that.
SPEAKER_01:All right. Uh let's switch over to Cobb County. This one is a residential fire. What can you tell us about this, Josh?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so Cobb County, another large, very large county fire department, four or five, I think, battalions on a day, and a shift commander. They do they do really well with blue card. We've had them on, I don't know, seven, eight, nine, ten times with, you know, I think some other strategic shifts. But one of the strategic shifts in the past, the IC was going to change strategies, and he had a division boss in place that said, ah, just give me like a few minutes to at least get this all clear, and then I think we can change strategies. And it's like that that's a value of putting the division boss forward, right? But there was trust in that too. Like the IC without the division boss was changing strategies. But the incident action plan that the division boss had for getting an all-clear of of some remaining units and doing some risk analysis because they're a little bit closer to it. There was huge value in that because they were able to get an all-clear so that they everybody felt better about okay, we're changing strategies. And they're we're we're confident that there's that we have a primary all clear for search, and there's nobody in there. So on this one, it's a residential building, and and as we march through this, we'll we'll just do the same thing when we wrap it up and kind of you know break it down. But uh they do a lot of things with with dispatch too, and their dispatch engages you know with them very nicely and gives them information. And none of this, I keep none of this ever happens by accident. It's intentional because they engage, they they put out and say that you know this is what we're going to do. We're gonna train you to that level. This is the expectation. And when things don't go right, they address it. And I I'll just you know put it out there, and Chris can probably help me with a timeline because it all runs together for me. But to me, it says something about an organization when when things don't quite go the way you want them to do, or when something doesn't go right, when you're willing to let when you're willing or you ask somebody to come in to to help you understand what happened. And I'm talking about the apartment building fire that they had where some guys got got burned, you know, that says something, right? So to me, Cobb County gets gets the A plus for one. Let's look at ourselves and how are we doing, how we're how are we doing, and kind of the good is never good enough, and we're gonna keep trudging forward, and they're they too are committed to the system.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, and yeah, knowing the folks that that we know in Cobb County and being familiar with their system and having gone there and trained with them and and all that is they are interested in doing a good job. They are that's a that's a big deal to them organizationally. That's a pride thing for the membership, that's an important part for the leadership, uh, and and and specifically the training folks uh there. And so putting out and and and utilizing a system, training to that system, managing that the that performance, how are we actually doing, and then and then fixing it or adjusting it when you really need to is they do it as good as anybody right now, as far as I'm concerned, with at least that I'm very familiar with. And and and the nice thing is is they get plenty of practice, right? Because they they do go to fires and and and they're interested in doing a good job, and they're connected to more than things than just blue card. They're connected to a lot of the things that are going on in the fire service that that make them better.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I love when we when we have the opportunity to put out live audio, you know, every so often, because it it shows one, the commitment from the organization to provide the service that that why we're in business to provide service, right? Life safety and put out people's fires, right? Really, we become all hazards. Whatever they call for is what we're gonna do. And both of these audio examples show that the system is committed to putting the fire out and to life safety, period. There's there is no other ands, if, buts about it. So anybody out there who doesn't know about the system, you can continue to be scared of the dark because that's all it is. You don't know what it is, and you don't know what sits in the dark. That's why you're scared of the dark, and that's why you're scared of the system.
SPEAKER_02:You know, the other thing I want to say, Josh, is does can an organization really say they give a shit about their members and they give a shit about the community if they're not willing to hold themselves accountable in their performance? Right. And I don't mean like in a disciplinary way. I mean like, no, literally, we're going to hold each other, each other accountable, right, to how we perform. And then because we care about the community, we legitimately care about the community. So that's a that's a strength, I think, that goes right along with what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_00:And accountability is accountability is reinforcing good behavior and just correcting when we can do things better. There is it accountability, so often they're like, oh, you're you're gonna write me up, or I'm gonna be in trouble, or you talk to me wrong way, or whatever. And it's like, get over it. Like we're you're all committed to to provide service for this job, then let's do that. Let's let's commit and do it the best that we could possibly can do it.
SPEAKER_01:All right, let's go to Cobb County, Georgia.
SPEAKER_06:Right, all units finding a vineyard away. Call takers advising. Homeowners are saying the garage is on fire, cars are catching on fire, and that uh homeowners are trying to get into the house and take the cars out. They're not listening to the call taker. Time three radio. Time three, go ahead. Radio is clear, upgrade response. All units upgrading response. Engine fifteen radio. Engine fifteen, go ahead. Alright, engine fifteen's on scene. Small two-story residence restructure. We do have flame showing on the bravo side coming out the garage, it looks like engine fifteen or half command. You can make this a working fire. Or in balance the alarm. Now doing the 360. Radio clear on scene, small two-story, flame showing, bravo side, coming out of the garage, working fire. I'll do three sixty, balance the alarm. Command radio. Command, go ahead. Just be advised, I met with the homeowner. It appears that everyone is out of the house. Radio clear, everyone out of the house. You haven't been able to get a hold of company twenty-one. Go ahead and start my truck fourteen. Radio screen, starting truck fourteen.
SPEAKER_07:Command radio and follow-up.
SPEAKER_06:Come on, go ahead with a follow-up.
SPEAKER_07:I walk around complete. I live the structure on the foot level. Main body of fire coming through the garage. 15 will be fire control.
SPEAKER_06:No change to IEP plan. Main body of fire through the garage. Engine 20's level 1 with 4. Tamar. Command engine 20. 20, go ahead. Looks like when you're staged, that's gonna be our last hydrant. You guys will catch that and just forward lay into engine fifteen. Twenty's player forward layout. Tiny three's on the same. Tamar. The tiny three is command with command transfer. Command battery, go ahead. Hey Steve, I got you guys being fire control on the alpha side. Check that looks like you're gonna be on the yeah. Just alpha side there. You also got engine twenty. There's gonna be water supply follows correct. Give me a can. Yeah, can you for keep that's correct? We're getting a knock on the fire that's in the garage, but it is extended into the house. As soon as we get another crew, we'll need a second line. They go in here on the office side. Battalion three is clear. I'll take from out here. Right. Battalion three radio. Battle three, go ahead. Show Battalion 3 with soon command. We're gonna make office strategy, no change to the IAP. Radio's clear, office strategy, no change to IAP. Command Engine 20. 20, go ahead. Go ahead and have your driver complete the water supply. Rest of your crew is gonna pull an additional line off of engine 15. Alpha side front door for fire control. Check for extension. 20 is clear, second line, outside front door, check for extension. Command radio. Command, go ahead. Were you able to get a hold of Company 21? Negative, you were not. So no answer over radio and no answer at the station. Start with an additional engine and an additional uh rescue, please. Radio is clear, start an additional engine and additional rescue. 15 follows 15 out, uh you're about 10 water, we're about 75 water.
SPEAKER_07:Engine 15, we can engine fifteen.
SPEAKER_06:Go ahead and get the utility companies out here. Like it's something. We've got it popping all down here in the garage. Right, I'm clear. Radio clear. Thank you. Command, you know what uh power company supplies this area. Tampa. Squad's on the same. Tampa. Commander squad 16. Go ahead, G. On Jack Alpha sign. Squad, on Jack Alpha sign. Command radio. Georgia Power. Radio Clear. Engine 15, Command. The only thing we're advised by the homeowner is there may be a cat inside. One cat. Alright, I'm clear. We're ready for water on that second line. Engine 14, level one. Command engine 14. Engine 14, go ahead. Bring your crew up, it's gonna be on deck alpha. We're clear on deck alpha side. Engine 15, command you're on the water. Command clear. Ready to be clear. Can you repeat that? Department of water has been established. Yeah, command of squad 16. You guys give me a search. Engine 15 command. Go ahead, engine 15.
SPEAKER_07:50 advisors are partial four collapse. It's gonna be on the uh bravo side.
SPEAKER_06:Command is clear, we have a partial collapse on the bravo side. First floor, you said? Yeah, 104. Commander, all crews operating. Be advised we do have a partial collapse on the first floor. Trump 14, command. Commander truck 14. Go ahead, command. Okay, well I need you to head out and be alpha on deck alpha side. Truck 14's clear on deck alpha side. Command engine 14. 14 Hey West, can you secure the utilities and also give me an additional 360? I don't have eyes on this structure at all. Yeah, 24.
SPEAKER_07:Swap 15 command.
SPEAKER_06:Go ahead, swap 16. You say an additional line to the alpha side?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, great floor. We got heavy fire on the uh first floor.
SPEAKER_06:Command clear. Right, command engine fourteen. Engine fourteen, go ahead. Okay, let's go ahead and swap and get an additional line off of engine fifteen, alpha side front door. Arrow clear, second line. Alpha side front door. It'll be a third line. Battalion 2's on team. Battalion Battalion 2. Battalion 2's on team. We're gonna be over here behind uh truck 14. 104. Wanna make you Alpha Division? Let me know you're in place and I'll give you your assignment. 10-4. Alpha division. Ready for water. Rescue 14 level 12. Come on, clear rescue fourteen. Rescue 14, go ahead. Complete your level one. Commander last unit or future traffic. Bobby, you're unreadable. Commander Squad 16. I did not read your last traffic. Alright, the only thing I can understand was something in the basement.
SPEAKER_07:I'll go face to place.
SPEAKER_06:Engine 25's on scene level one with three. Radio's clear, engine twenty five, stadium level one. Level one. Engine twenty command. Go at engine twenty. We gotta release them on an azzle, please. Engine uh command clear. Engine of truck fourteen.
SPEAKER_08:Engineer fourteen.
SPEAKER_06:Okay, relieve engine fifteen. Truck fourteen, relieve engine fifteen on their hand line.
SPEAKER_07:Truck fourteen, clear refinery. Engine fifteen, command.
SPEAKER_06:Go in.
SPEAKER_07:We got a good volume of fire on the main floor. Working its way upstairs already.
SPEAKER_06:Alright, I'm playing reposition your line. Break. Command to truck 14.
SPEAKER_07:Truck 14, go ahead, command.
SPEAKER_06:You'll be relieving engine twenty, not engine fifteen.
SPEAKER_07:Truck 14, clear, flight and 40, go on.
SPEAKER_06:Engine 20, command with a file change. Go ahead, engine twenty. Exit is a structure of four personnel. I'm clear, exit four personnel. Recycle. Air 30, all thing. Command Air 30. Go ahead. You set up recycle. For rehab right between engine 20 and engine 15. Command clear meta. Metal, go ahead. Make your way down to the uh rehab area. Commander radio, drop the emergency tones. Radios clear copyright down. Command all units operating on the structure. We're transitioning to defensive mode operations. Everyone exit the structure. Defensive mode, exit the structure. Got a partial collapse on the Charlie side. Commander Alpha Boss. Commander Alpha Division. Alpha Division, go ahead. Help me get a par as they come out the Alpha side.
SPEAKER_07:Squad 16 Alpha Squad 16 Rava. Alpha Division, Command.
SPEAKER_06:Go ahead. We have far for squad 16, engine 14, and truck 14.
SPEAKER_02:Sorry, clear. So is uh I'll start this one off, JV. So this one's an interesting one, right? You we we start to hear, you know, some pretty clear information, some pretty clear uh direction of uh what's happening on the front end from the first arriving IC. Battalion chief gets there, does a nice job in that transition. We don't lose any, we don't lose any pace, and we don't lose any information with regard to the incident or the position and function of everybody, you know, when he shows up, and then starts plugging people into the tactical positions based on the information he has to be able to get water on the fire and to be able to get an all-clear. They've got they clearly have a garage fire, it's got they've got extension into the house. Then they start getting information about there's a collapse on the Bravo, there's there's a change in the Charlie. The squad company starts talking about something about the basement, and which really was the first time we kind of heard that, heard the idea that there's a basement here, at least that I caught. And and the IC is starting to take all these pieces of of what's going on. Well, there's there's still information coming in that we do not have fire control. They've got fire in this location, at that location. Companies are recycling, so they're coming out. They've already gone through one bottle of air and one cycle of actually work, in a lot of cases, probably flowing water and doing that thing, uh, doing their thing, right? And now we're getting to the point is all right, the IT makes the decision, can I support what's going on based on the structural integrity, based on the progress that we're making on the flyer, or can't I? And he clearly cannot support that, right? And so makes the decision to change strategies. Has a uh in the interim, before this happens, gets a division boss in place to start organizing and paying attention and and coordinating what's happening on that on that alpha side, and which which gives him the ability, all right. Now Alpha's gonna manage this. I've got stuff going here on Bravo and Charlie. I'm gonna start paying attention to these companies a little bit more closely, puts it all together, makes the decision. And then once he goes defensive, then it's very easy to connect with Alpha and the other folks to make sure, all right, is everybody out and do they have a par, right? So that they can move forward with this defensive incident action plan. And so again, I I think they're utilizing the system effectively in the and the way it was intended. Much like the last one, I would say if there was anything I would I would uh say that would benefit them in improving is the use of tickets to get on the radio and to knowing and when and what purpose status change should take place, when priority traffic should take place, and uh and those types of things. So again, that's that that that's those are things that every fire department needs to work on, right? And so that's not that that didn't get in the way of them doing a good job here, but it would put them in a position to actually do even even better jobs. So I I think I think they did really well. I like listening to incidents where the IC is engaged, getting people in the right place, paying attention, but he wasn't micromanaging. He was not in their business, he wasn't telling them how and and when and why and and all these other things. He gave them the right amount of information in TLO and the assignments, and then and then communicated well when there was progress reports, and then made a change when he should have made a change before something bad happens. And so that's a that's that that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so this is just another one to to reinforce the dispatch engaging, because they their dispatch clearly engages, so that's really good. And then another piece is this organization sends what they've identified as the appropriate amount of resource to it's this isn't just a house on fire. We're ready. If if they if there's people trapped, known or unknown, and we find a victim, we're ready. So I mean they had they they had MetOps set up. They set up, you know, for an area to recycle. They had somebody their air their air unit got there and set up for rehab if it if it goes or went that far. So that's that front-end forecasting piece that just makes it easier, if you will, for the for the strategic IC to manage it because on the front end, there's a there's a there's that bolus of resource that they're getting. And the IC in this case did a nice job because in route, there was something going on with that company that never marked that they were responding. And he wanted to make sure that he the resource that was dispatched, whether it's going to be them or somebody else, I want to make sure that I have the resource that I believe that I'm supposed to have, you know, coming to this. So yeah, another, another nice job. And you know, two different incidents, you know, 600 miles away, two different building types, but both using the same system. And, you know, District 90 from Springdale could sit in the car and and run that incident at Cobb and And vice versa. And because it's again the it's the same system, and people are trained the same way with the same kind of expectations.
SPEAKER_01:So I timed this out, and we get criticized by from people who don't understand what blue card is about level one staging. They don't they they think level one staging is a mile away and you and you're just sitting there waiting for an assignment. Engine 20 approached, went level one, uh command immediately identified, hey, I need you on that hydrant where you're at right now, and make that water supply. That was a total of 13 seconds. So it took 13 seconds for the level one transmission to happen and for them to get back what their what their assignment was going to be initially. And then they ended up moving up after the uh the water supply was made. But I thought that was good. And the other thing I liked was the IC didn't have eyes on the structure, and he made it known to everybody hey, I I can't see this from where I'm at. So he's depending on his division bosses to uh let him know what the conditions are and what's going on. So there was one side of the structure he couldn't see. He's like, hey, I didn't see that. So everybody knew that that was kind of a handicap for the IC, but they were able to make up for it with the deployment of division bosses.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that that level one staging thing, John, is interesting because why is that successful? That's successful because the IT had a clue and he had a plan. And he he's practiced it, and he knows how to use the system and he knows where he wants them based on a practice set of the ability to size up and and and plug that into action. And that's exactly why that's happening. And and that that that's a great thing. And and and you know, the the the detractors of level one staging probably like many things in their life, they don't get.
SPEAKER_01:All right, two great clips this week. Springdale, Ohio, and Cobb County, Georgia. Thank you for sending those clips in. If you would like us to showcase what you're doing at your department, please uh contact us in the show notes and uh we we'd be happy to showcase what you're doing at your department with your audio. It helps everyone else learn, and we appreciate that and show practical application of Blue Card. Before we go today, timeless tactical truth. All right, timeless tactical truth from Alan Brunicini. And today's is don't let the fire/slash building force you to go defensive, go on your own. What do you think the boss is trying to say there, starting with Chris?
SPEAKER_02:I think exactly what I just said with the the last comment I made about this incident, right? Proactive, understood what was going on the friar ground, had practiced and uses the system, knows and understands it, has the ability to critically think, and is prepared for making changes when they need to. Knowing and understanding what is tenable and manageable and what when can we continue to operate in the offensive strategy because the right things are happening and the problem is getting better as compared to no, not all the right things are happening, and maybe not because we're doing poorly. It's just the the incidents ahead of us, right? And that it had a head start when we showed up. And so knowing and recognizing when that's happening and making the call, it's not an emotional decision, it's not a uh it's not a spiritual decision, it's a decision based on critical factors and the fact that I likely can no longer save anything here, uh, lives or and or property. So I'm going to make a switch and then I'm gonna define where we're gonna work from that point. So I I the the both both of these these guys today actually did a very good job with that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so uh the the the Nutri Radio report and that follow up report set the stage. This is where it was at when they got there, and and the you know, the timeline begins, and it's either getting better or worse. And in this case, it wasn't getting better, even with the resource that they were putting at it, and then that he was being fed information, but he could see. And some of the stuff he couldn't see, and putting the initial radio port fallout report together, and then the communications of you know a collapse, and then you know, the fire involvement, you know, throughout the first floor. Conditions were were not getting better based on the resource that they were they were putting at it, and they they probably weren't, they were not gonna win, right? It was too far ahead. So it's that forecasting piece. So from the time that they arrived, what does it look like and what do we think is gonna happen?
SPEAKER_01:That's a wrap on today's B Shifter Podcast. I'd like to thank Josh Bloom and Chris Stewart for uh riding shotgun today and helping us out with that audio. Especially thank you to Springdale, Ohio and Cobb County, Georgia. Remember to like and subscribe, tell your friends about the B Shifter Podcast. And until next Thursday, we'll talk to you later. Thanks for listening.