Jarrett Tarver

A Conversation with Captain Jarrett Tarver

This powerful episode features Captain Jarrett Tarver of the Sedona Fire District, brother of the late Bret Tarver, Phoenix Firefighter, whose ultimate sacrifice shaped how departments nationwide approach the hazard zone. 

Joined by Chris Stewart and John Vance, Jarrett reflects on his brother’s life, the day of the call, and how loss became a driving force for better training, stronger systems, and a culture that prioritizes bringing everyone home.

Candid and packed with real leadership takeaways, this episode honors the Tarver legacy while offering practical lessons every firefighter and officer can use.

In this episode:
• Who Bret was as a brother, father, husband, and firefighter
• The family’s path into the fire service
• The day of the call and its lasting impact
• Turning grief into change and action
• Tactical U-turns, risk management, and the courage to adapt
• Blue Card as a shared language and system for safe operations
• Mayday discipline, air management, and depth limits
• Company officer mindset — trust over micromanagement
• Supporting ICs after tough calls
• Brunacini’s timeless lesson on tactical agility

👉 For Waldorf University Blue Card credit and discounts: waldorf.edu/blue-card

👉 Free command and leadership resources: bshifter.com

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Please subscribe, share, and honor Bret’s legacy by leading with purpose.

Transcript

Meet Jarrett Tarver

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Welcome to the B Shifter Podcast. You've got uh John Vance here along with Chris Stewart and a very special guest today. Jarrett Tarver is here. Jarrett is a captain with the Sedona Fire District in Arizona. Uh he's a new blue card instructor. He's getting certified at the AVB CTC as an instructor this week. And we wanted to take the opportunity to sit down with Jarrett and talk to him about Brett Tarver, his brother, and his career and what he's learned so far, and just kind of get to know him. As uh Chris was saying before we went on. You know, we we know a lot about the incident, but we want to know more about your brother. So we we are very honored to be able to sit down with you, learn more about Brett, learn uh what the incident meant to you and your family, and get to know really Brett without I've never met him. Chris has had the opportunity to meet him. So hopefully that would be a good opportunity for our listeners today to to get to know who Brett was. So thanks for being here today, Jerry.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Yeah, it's it's it's an honor to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Tell us first of all, just uh a little bit about yourself. You've been with Sedona for about 23 years, 24 and a half years. Okay, 24 and a half years.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

I'm a company officer in Sedona. Okay. Uh yeah, I started my career right before 2001, March 14th. So I I was kind of getting my feet wet into the fire service following Brett and my other older brother's footsteps.

SPEAKER_04 2:07

That's not a horrible place to have to work in Sedona.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

It's it's it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

Yeah, no lie.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

So, yeah, so Sedona for 24 and a half years. I've been doing the fire service for about 28 now, uh, reserve time and everything, and want to keep growing. I want to, you know, that's why I'm here this week. I want to become one of our instructors. I believe in the program, I believe in what what Blue Card is trying to do for the nation and for our fire service.

Who Brett Was As A Person

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Well, Blue Card users are very familiar with Brett because of the incident and the recovery period that the Phoenix Fire Department went through uh following that, a very extensive period of recovery. And it was a process that was shared with the entire American fire service at the time. So let's get to know Brett a little bit before we we talk about the incident, maybe, and and really what the recovery process did for you and your family. Who who was Brett and what was he all about?

SPEAKER_03 3:04

So Brett was number two out of six. So older brother, and then Brett was number two, and Brett was the how do I describe Brett? He was kind of the overwatcher of the family. He was just a very caring, took care of us, the younger three. Brett, we all looked up to Brett. Brett, it was such a humble heart, such a big teddy bear. And I know that might sound weird about you know, my brother, that's how I look at him, and he was such an idol in my life. I always looked up to Brett. He was such a he was a great family man. He had, you know, his three daughters. I mean, that was his life. And Brett, Brett started us into the fire service. Brett, you know, came from a construction kind of background and and moved into fire. He got hired in at Sun City at his first start of his career, and it kind of set that path for us to man, that looks like a pretty neat job. So he man, he would give you his shirt off his back. He he was a big man, but he was humble heart, kind, gentle person.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

I always heard he played football. Was he a football player in college or high school, or what was his athletic background?

SPEAKER_03 4:18

So he Brett was a state wrestling champion. I I think he played a little football. I can't recall on that one, but I know he was big into wrestling, and I know he did some boxing for a little bit, nothing tournament or nothing wise, but real athletic. Brett was he had the mindset of if you're gonna do it, don't waste your time, but go for it. If it's something that you want, go for it. So it resonated in all of us growing up, watching our older three brothers succeed and become the men they were. So when you grow up having that role model, that the I mean, he when he wanted it, he went for it. And he usually succeeded. Very smart, very hard worker, dedicated to what it was that he wanted and knew what he wanted, he went for it.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

And what got him interested, and and really all your family, the members that are in public safety with your department, or with your family rather, what got you guys interested in the fire department?

SPEAKER_03 5:16

So I'm I apologize, I cannot remember the gentleman's name that worked for Sun City Fire. He was a neighbor of ours.

SPEAKER_05 5:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

And that was the time in transition when Sun City was going to from, I think it was Rural Metro, and they were moving to building Sun City Fire.

SPEAKER_04 5:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

And so our neighbor went down to his chief and said, I have a guy that needs to be a fireman with this department. And that's kind of what the it took a little bit, a little nudging. Brett was a contractor, he was kind of doing his own thing. And he tested, went down, got hired, and went through the academy. Yeah, we're talking like late 80s, early 90s, if I remember right. It was, I do believe it was yeah, late 80s. Yeah, like 88, something like that.

SPEAKER_04 6:07

Yeah, that's what I was remembering. Yep, yep.

Entering The Fire Service And Family Path

SPEAKER_03 6:09

He so he he he went through, went through the academy, went through you know, Phoenix's academy was for Sun City, yeah, and succeeded. I think he was top cadet in that academy and honored his shirt that he got sent for, which was Sun City, and went to work for Sun City. So seeing the uh the success that he achieved from uh getting into that career and and then really truly trying to understand it herself, you know, I was still pretty young at the time and what it meant to him. Like just he was a just to serve, just to be a good person and get out there and help your committee and and be a part of that and watch him grow and in that fire, and then the camaraderie he was building with his crews and the and the guys that we started, you know, meeting some of the names out there that we we know still from from that getting his feet in the door at Sin City. But it was it was almost a how do I say it? He he had this thorn in his side that he wanted to work for Phoenix Fire. I want to work for the best. And I was just said a little while ago when he wanted it, and he wanted it and it was in his mind, he's gonna go for it and he's gonna achieve it. So he, I mean, very short uh time that he was with Sun City, he became an engineer. And then I do believe right at the sort of the transition when he got into the second academy for Phoenix, he was on their captain's list, and but that still didn't hold him back. He still wanted to work for Phoenix Fire. So to answer back to your question, John, the what got us going was my my second brother that followed suit. He got hired in it in Chino up just north of Prescott, and saw the writing on the wall too with the career. He was uh working for the city of Prescott and digging, you know, digging ditches, and and he he saw the writing of it. What kind of a job can this be? And looked into it, got hired, and became a fireman for for uh Chino Valley. So bumped that down a few more years. I remember getting on with the reserve. My brother Sean kind of did the same thing.

SPEAKER_04 8:18

He's like, You ought to you ought to look into this. This is before Chino became part of the Central Arizona and all that, right, right? Yes, sir. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 8:26

This was still Chino Fire and Central was still their own deal. Got it. And so I'm like, well, man, you know, I don't know. I'm a young kid, I'm still doing construction, and I wanted to be a contractor, I want to build home for a living. And you know, construction's up and down. So Brett was a contractor too, and he saw that. He had he had girls come, he's got babies, he's got married, he's got you know, he's I want to get a home, I need some stability, and but I like the freedom of the the schedule, who right? That's what firemen say the retirement in the schedule. So as I'm now building homes and kind of following suit, I remember sitting, I'll never forget this. I was sitting on a roof right down from station one in Chino, framing a roof, sheeting a roof. And I remember already having those conversations with my brother Sean about pushing me into the fire service. And I remember the bays coming up, the apparatus are coming out, lights on, code three, they go blown up by our construction site. And it it just kind of set the hair in the back of my neck, going, man, that looks that looks really intriguing. So then I really I started adding to it, got on a reserve with uh Chino and started playing. You know, I had I was at the time Chino was just taking reserves and they were sending us to get our EMTs and our and our fire one and twos certifications. So it the thing about a volunteer or a reserve program, you know, you we could have a whole conversation on the the feelings and mixed feelings of that stuff, right? I will tell you right now, in being able to bring myself up and be a part of that system in a reserve or volunteer or donating your time to serve, it not only gave me a good sense of feeling in myself, but is it what I really want to do? You know, I didn't I didn't just spend all this time, get hired somewhere and say this isn't for me, I'm out. And that you guys sent me through, or you know, the department sent me through an academy and did put some money into me and outfitted me, and now I'm like, ah, it's not my it's not my forte. So I got to start my career in in fire as a as a reserve, and then that's where it took off. I I started getting my classes, getting more involved, really starting to run calls with the with the full-time guys, and it got in my blood. And then I really started to feel what Brett was doing, you know. So then my twin brother, he was also, he'd moved to Alaska, became, you know, to do anything in Alaska. And same thing. He was he was doing a lot of central, or I'm sorry, uh his fire department, Capital City in Juneau, he was doing a lot of their rescues. So they would call him up. He was a river guide. So they would call him up, he would take his raft out and he would go do recoveries. And then he was working for an outfit on a tour guide outfit that was he was teaching their their fire extinguisher stuff for just for the offices and all. So it kind of transitioned to this and why don't you just come to work for us? You're already doing our job, you know. So he dabbled into it, and it's crazy is he got hired six months before I did, full time. Wow. And I was actually hired, I I got picked up in Sedona in in February as S CR ship cover reserved, and I was waiting for a really good respected captain that was was retiring. So I was just kind of in that holding area, and Chino Valley was picking me up July 1st, and then all of a sudden I get picked up in Sedona June 22nd. So they they it was kind of cool. They pushed for it, some of the guys on the floor, you know, and and had my back. So I I didn't turn on the job. I took the first job I'd offered and I went to work for Sedona, and I've never looked back.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

And was that in 2000 or 2002? 2002. 2002.

The Call That Changed Everything

Turning Grief Into Training Purpose

SPEAKER_03 12:03

Okay, and it was a opportunity that man, I I just again I've never looked back. I I I I fell in, got into it. I loved working in northern Arizona. I loved working with a department such as Sedona that's real progressive. I mean, we we try to, we can always do better in SOPs and everything else, right? Training, but I mean, we're always trying to stay on that poor side of what's the new, what's the greatest, what's the best way to learn. I mean, here I am 24 and a half years on the job. I could retire and I'm down here doing blue car training the trainer because I believe in growing our people. Right. And and and we're we we have a change in culture coming, and we are going through that, right? And we need to train these people, we need to give them the new what's out there, what's best. Look at the cancer protocols and look at the stuff. We didn't do that stuff 20 years ago, you know, and and what is that? It's we're learning and we're and we're able to progress. We have to be able to progress and get out of these ways of this is the way we do it, this is how we do it, this is why we why do we do it? We talked about that today in class. Why, the why, and so anyway, that's that's kind of how that rolled into fire. So the four of us out of the six, one went on, got his master's, he's a computer nerd and making way more money than I'll ever see. And then my oldest brother stayed as a contractor and still lives in the valley here. And I'll kind of I think I I believe you asked me a little piece of what this had an effect on my family. I mean, you can go, uh I can answer this many ways. Yeah, yeah, go for it. You can answer it however you want. It's uh it was hard, it was very hard. It was difficult. You know, we I remember the day I got the phone call when it happened that day of you know, 2001. I was coming off a construction job and I was opening up a bar as a bartender, and I remember getting a phone call from a friend, and that's kind of where it started. Was I still didn't believe it, you know? It's my brother's, it's kind of what we're talking about today in class, John. That that's my brother, it he's fine. It's not gonna happen to my brother, you know, that that mentality, like that's not gonna happen to us. So, long story short, you know, we come down, we go to the hospital where he was transported, and then it hit. Then it hit. And then I I will tell you the the effect. How do you how do you describe what it does to a mother? She lost her son, a son that we're all loved equally. We all are big and close. It did drive us closer, so that's the thank God on that, right? Sometimes this does separate people and push people away, or whatever you want to say. This grew us even closer, but it was a void. It was a void for a very long time, and it was it, it was it was a little difficult to I mean, you couldn't turn on a channel for months without hearing Brett Tarver's name. But I never looked at it in a disrespectful way or nothing like that. It was an honor for me to hear it, you know. But what that for me, what helped me and and and I'll be straight, I almost I almost backed out of the fire service. I I wasn't scared, but I'm like, that has happened to him. This could happen. I mean, I and and I was talking to one of the members in the class yesterday, and I r I remember, you know, you you you you have this saying like, ah, it's not gonna happen to me. My brother was 40 years old when when this accident happened, and I'm 51. I'm 24 and a half years on the job, and I've made it 11 years past my brother, and but there was an airy feeling there for the first part of my career. Like March 14th's coming up, and maybe I shouldn't go to work today. You know, I mean, resonating, trying to build that commonality of like, but I made it 11 years, you know, and I do believe, I really do truly believe, because I had the opportunity, and my the my my department asked me that if could would you be willing to take on the save your own program? You have a piece to this that we can't bring to the table, obviously the closeness of it. And I said I'd be an honor to. And back then in in the early 2000s, you know, the that save your own, the the Rick outside, the you know, the whole rapid intervention teams, that was still a big thing, right? So it was an honor for me. So the first thing I did was I had the opportunity to just come down to Phoenix, sit with uh Chief Harms, who was running some of that, attend some of your guys' reading smoke classes when you're bringing crews in, because that was a big thing. There's so much in this fire that even if you look back to the footage of 24 years ago now, and you watch those videos, I still have all the news footage tapes that Phoenix gave us stacks of. And and you watch those tapes, there's so much in those tapes that you can get out of it on building construction, on fire behavior, on smoke conditions, on access, egress, you know, all that stuff. There's so there's not just the Mayday section, right? That is a huge part of this, but there's more in that that I could get out of that fire and learn from. And matter of fact, my second year on the job, I was just off probation in my second year. We get popped for a second in on a lumberman's fire, two o'clock, three o'clock, uh, one or two o'clock in the morning. And I'm in big building, big old old metal building, you know, trim sections were all in metal wrapped, you know. So we get called in, we're second in. And you you when you look at L uh line of duties, you start to see those things that where where you start to see recognizing those problems and seeing those problems, and why weren't these things starting to get addressed? Well, the same thing was kind of lining up on the lumberman's fire, and I had the opportunity with the knowledge that I had by going through some of that process and learning from that fire. You know, first thing we do, I tagged, I was assigned to tag the hydrant, our engine. So I get out, I tag the hydrant, hydrant blows three foot off the ground, lands on the side. Somebody had hit it, and it broke off and lands on basically lands on our feet, you know. Our LDH going to the Charlie. We second in engine, we're going to Charlie, and this thing's ripping. So I I just I'm two years on the job. I look at my captain like, is this supposed to happen? You know, like what do you do? And so those, you know, and those things start to add up. Well, then our assignment was to set up for defensive, but we were gonna make entry in Charlie. So when going in Charlie in that building, you had to go through a trim center. That's where they kept all their oak trim and their base and their case and all that. So we get signed to go in, and I remember going in and breaching the back door in that place, and it I remember the paint, the paint section, and all that was on the right hand side, and that's where it started. And I was behind my captain, it was just myself and my captain going in. And guys, it's two o'clock in the morning at a lumber store. Yeah, what are we doing? And I remember I will never forget this when when we breached that door and we went in and just got hit with all that just thick, nasty black smoke and heat. The heat was unbelievable. And then you're starting to hear stuff kind of explode and aerosol cans, and and we're probably five, ten feet in the door, maybe hand infantry quarter, this giant building. And I I I tapped my captain on the shoulder. I said, Man, I'll I'll I will go to hell and back with you. I will. I'll do I'll follow my orders. I will but I said, Do we what are we doing? Like what are we saving? You know, I mean, it was so hot, it was and he he's like, I'm glad you said it. We backed out, you know, and we started setting up and gave that report and started setting up for defensive, but it was recognizing by learning from that event that I started to see signs that like we're risking a lot here for nothing. So I hope that answered your question.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

So I I I got a question. So, how how challenging was it for you to enter into the fire service? You know, your what are 10 months after your brother died, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So 10 months. So you're coming in that obviously your your last name is is known now to the American Fire Service, right? And and they're aware of who you are and what and and what connection you have now to the fire service. How challenging is that for you as an individual coming in there going to work in Sedona?

Early Career Lessons In Risk And Reward

SPEAKER_03 20:47

You know, I don't I don't know if it was a challenge. I think it was more of a I wanted to write my own path. So fortunately for me, it wasn't like getting hired with Phoenix where something where you're filling somebody's shoes because of the event. Yeah. I already kind of had my name. I was already a reserve, I was already doing my stuff. So the department already knew me. A lot of people already kind of knew me in my department. Obviously, you're 100% right. Our name was our name. But it there was a time, like I said earlier, I I was gonna, I was gonna hang up the coat. I like that this isn't I don't know if this is what I want to really do now. I I was I was I'll be honest, scared. You know, I didn't want to leave my mom with another one, you know. But something a few weeks went by, months maybe, and it just something snapped. I said, man, this is not what Brett wants you to do. You you continue on with what you believe in your heart, you know, and that's what I did. I just I embraced it. I learned from again. I used his name. I don't, I don't, I don't want to say it like that. I took the opportunity of learning from that fire to build from, to learn from, to grow from, but not to use as a crutch or to use as an excuse. Does that does that make sense? It it wasn't it was not hard for me to transition and continue to grow in that service because I saw what it did for him, I saw what it did for his family, I saw the the the the full heart he had serving not only Sun City but Phoenix, and he was so proud to be a Phoenix fireman. He loved it. I asked him one time, you're gonna promote? No, I'm fireman. You know, I mean he just loved it. He was an engineer already at Sun City, he was on the captain's list. He's like, I want to be a fireman, I want to be a medic fireman. And he loved Engine 14, and that crew. I again going through Sun City, we're younger. We go, we used to go down, have dinner with them, play basketball, got to know the crews, and then it started happening with when he went to 14. And you know, same thing. We'd come down, we'd go to dinner, we'd sit with Cy and all his his his crew, and it was just the family aspect of it was they never once looked at you like, oh man, there's visitors are here. Phoenix, man, that crew would just open our door, they'd serve food, they would, you know, we'd all jump in and help them clean like no sit down, you know. I mean, but it was just so welcoming. There was a little station to put a lot of people in, especially big old tarvers, you know. But it was such a warm heart and a warm feeling from a department and our from a crew that we barely knew them, but because they believed in Brett and Brett was one of their family, that we were their family. You know what I mean? That commodity, that that, that, that, that just that sense of feeling like you're welcomed. And that was another thing that kept me going with it because it's like, man, how many times do you get to share what we do with people that don't understand what we do? And we are the only ones that understand in an aspect that we know what we do, right? We we we live it. We we we're the ones running the calls, we're the ones out there, and it's sometimes hard to relay what we do with somebody. It's and we when we bounce so much stuff off of each other at our station, man. We solve so many problems at the table. We have no business trying to solve when we're trying to solve it, right? If Chiefs would just let us do it, we'd be fine. The world would be perfect. But it it was that embrace, that family, that that that team that just kept. I came from sports too. I played football, I played basketball, baseball, and that's what the fire service felt like. There wasn't a hard transition to be a part of something, to be a member of a team. It isn't Captain Tarver showing up. I rely on my crew so much. I got guys that are so specialty in items that I don't even pretend to know what they know. I I allow my guys to to take that and and run with it because that we we rely on each other. And I mean, we we can sit around a table and we can we can joke, we can, we can laugh, we can discuss. Wow, we could have done that a little better. But we're the hardest people on ourselves too, though, right? So it it it I saw that and I I wanted that to be a part of my life. My wife, we've been together 25 years, been married 23. We have four boys, and my wife is also in the fire service. Oh, okay. She's she's uh 14 years now. She's worked for Copper Canyon, which is right there out of Camp Birdie. She's in the administration building, so she's on the dark side.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Hey, you you need her for your chats though, too, right?

Wearing The Tarver Name At Work

Family, Marriage, And Firehouse Life

SPEAKER_03 25:49

Yeah, so she she she actually it was an honor. She did work for our department for about four years. So it was it was kind of cool having my wife working with us, you know, and and but certain things just life. She went back down to Cowper Canyon and is doing great down there. But I'll tell you, it's so nice to have a wife who has built my resumes, helped me test, helped me promote, helped me, you know. I mean, my kids succeeded because of my wife. You know what I mean? That it was both of us, but you know what I mean. It's like she was just so part of everything that we did together, but to understand the fire service. So she knows how whiny firemen can be. She knows, you know, and so we it's nice because she she worked for a different department. Well, we can come home and we can, I'm like, hey, baby, how was your day? And she'll tell me a little bit, you know, not confidential stuff and all, but we talk and or she'll bounce stuff off me, like, what would what do you think about this? And I'm like, I'll tell her my mind, you know, and and but then I do the same with her because that that that HR uh piece, administrative piece that sometimes we uh don't have uh an insight into, I guess you could say, in in the aspect of what how how would HR or how would an administrative look at this? I have an issue going on with a personnel or whatever, and I so I bounce stuff off her all the time, and she and she's so good about turning my like sometimes I want to just put people, hang them on their code, you know, and hang them on the wall and just let them sit there for a while. But she talks me down off the ledge and she gives me a whole different perspective and a different way to look at it. Yeah, so having someone on my team that understands the fire service, works in the fire service, it's an absolute dream too. My brother Jason, he's my twin brother, he's the one that works for Capital City. He is he's got one year left, he's been on almost 25 years. He's got he got hired six months prior to me, and he did the same thing. He got in with Juno. He he's our R truck and he's had a heck of a career, you know. And I'll tell you guys, in 2005, my brother Sean, my brother Jason, and myself all got firefighter of the year. Wow. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, and it wasn't I I don't know if all of three unique places all three in different in in Juneau, Alaska, in Prescott, and in Sedona. And I got Firefighter of the Year for Lumberman's Fire. Sean got it, and then my brother got it. We got it all in the same year. Isn't that crazy? I'm like, did was this was there some phone calls made here or what what's going on, you know? But but it was just it's just little things like that. Uh I can get back to kind of talking about the day, you know. I I remember uh I remember coming down, going through I I do want to say this, my heart is so full with the way that Phoenix Fire treated us and what they did for the family, and and not only the family for us immediately, but to the to the to the brothers that were there that day, to the service for the whole department. I I've I've never witnessed anything like it since. I hope I don't have to in that aspect. But you know, you asked the question today in class, John, that resonated with me. And it's like, how would your department handle this? We went through Maydays today, and I've I've said that to myself for 24 and a half years. How would my department and it would it would crush us? But then I I I can't I can't compare it to what I saw from Phoenix because it what Phoenix did was I I it it was amazing. It I don't even know how to explain it. It so I always ask that question. Uh we're a small department, and I I a hundred percent that a hundred percent guarantee they would take care of my family, and I guarantee they would help us, and I guarantee all that. I'm not saying anything, but uh it's like you know, I don't know if any of you guys hunt, but you know, you you take your son out and he shoots a trophy bull that first time ever hunting, and you're like, you'll never shoot a bull like that again, or an animal, or whatever. And that's kind of what it was like, you know. I I mean I witnessed a a a funeral the whole thing that was breathtaking, and and you know, and I can't compare that to anything, but that's those those are some of the things that I you know what I mean. So the relationship between what I learn, how I do it, and then and then and and trying to always answer those questions because the hardest thing for me going through Brett's fire was talking to the people involved, and notice and this is not a a punt, nothing like. like that to but what it what it did to the how they felt how I mean people breaking down in tears for for my brother was so I I don't I don't know how to even explain the impact that that had on me because I it it wasn't fake it wasn't this wasn't you know it wasn't it was real and so all those perspectives of everything that I've got out of that fire I you know I got to I I had the chance to drive to Colorado Springs for the memorial this is another little story I'll tell you guys so the memorial we get invited up to the memorial and myself my sister-in-law my mom we pick up mom and we're gonna drive to Colorado Springs so we do a couple days in advance we meet Robin and all of them are already in the route up there so we get up there and like my brother Sean and his wife were going to fly up later and then my brother Matt was going to fly up later and all of my other brothers were flying in from other states. So we drive we get to Colorado Springs and it's it's a firefighter party I mean it truly it is it's great hanging out with people everybody that's there for it and you know the whole thing it was great but I remember sleeping in my brother's basement and I get a phone call from him and he's like what are you doing? I said I'm sleeping it was a long night and he goes turn on the news I said I don't watch news and I'm good I'm going back to bed he goes get upstairs and turn on the news so I run upstairs and I remember walking upstairs news was already on my mom had turned it on and she's crying at the table and I'm like I still have no idea what really what's going on but 9-11's going on and I I'm in Colorado Springs for memorial for my brother my mom's at the table she's bawling her eyes out poor thing and I just gave her a hug but I I'm like mom what what's wrong she goes do you know what today is I said yeah it's Wednesday or what you know she goes no it's Brett's birthday Brett's birthday was 91160 wow is that not crazy again one of those little things that you just don't think about and I never put it together man I and here we are in Colorado all flights get shut down family members can't make it you know the whole you guys remember that whole deal and I'm in Colorado Springs for a memorial that we we were able to attend because a lot of it had to change a lot of the guest speakers all that stuff were shut out you know so we were still able to attend it's still a beautiful ceremony I was still honored to be there but we're in Colorado for memorial for my brother 9-11's happening and it's his birthday so it was it's it it it's surreal you know so all there's always something out there there's still pieces of stuff that you know you get you you get from 24 years ago you you told me something earlier that I I didn't even realize that March 14th 2001 when this happened engine 14 wasn't even in service when the call came out i i didn't I didn't realize that talk talk uh tell us about them going back in service and just because I think the spirit of it is these were folks who cared about the job they wanted to go fight the fire and they they got back in service as fast as they could. You bet. So the way I understand it is that engineer engineer large or Dana Dana she they had had some maintenance or something she had to get done on 14 so she went down to get it done. Well Brett and the crew you know captain everybody Higgins everybody stayed at station they worked out did whatever they were doing and she was just going to run down get whatever it was get a light bulb or whatever it was well tone goes out for the dumpster fire I think is what it came out as dump dumpster fire and engine 25 was dispatched 14 is out of service which would have been 14's first two correct correct so Dana hears the stuff she's on her way back calls the station says hey there's a fire right down the road I'm almost there I'll pick you guys up 14 or apologize 25 gets on scene they're doing their thing they pull a line to the you know the dump or to the they end up being a debris fire and 14 shows up and they're signed to Ace Hardware and the in the beauty salon and the in the clothing store so right there you know you think of the stars your lucky stars like what what would have happened if 14 was first in I mean you can't question those things right you can't you can say what if so it again those kind of things so yeah they picked up I mean they're not gonna turn down a fire we're heading out so they did they parked out of the way they I think engine three had made it on scene close to the same time and they they told to go in and start checking for extension again thinking that building had gone all the way back so then they wrap around and go in through Southwest. And there were things there were I I don't want to say these are the things that I've just heard through it learned from it under tried to understand from it. So I don't ever want to state anything that because I know that Phoenix Fire did an unbelievable job with this process and you know just little things that I'd pick up by talking to people or whatever you know like like your guys's new pol or Phoenix's policy about the business owners or managers have to meet fire personnel on Alpha Side. And I think one of the things I heard on this was the manager of the store went back to the back room I think it was a propane bottle is what I was told grabbed the you know just a five gallon whatever the propane and walked out front sat it down and and just kept walking walked right past fire. I mean what would that have changed right what would that change you walked out and then the business will say hey there's fire coming in my back door you know that there's no they would have been because it was what I understand is 14 went in they start checking for extension they get smoke they get you know they start seeing it as it's it's extended from the the outside fire to the inside fire. So they now have to go back out to gear up their hose. They're already in gear you know their mask hanging stuff like that but they now have to go get gear to go back in to fight fire. So and I do believe they pull it all off engine three correct they extend it off from engine three of that to be true. So I mean their engine's parked out of the way you know they're just so they're pulling all their stuff off engine three which not that wanted to change nothing you know now now the tactics right we don't go in too deep we don't get in too deep I mean those things are changed because of that so knowing my brother I mean I talked to my brother multiple times about some of the calls he got to experience and run with Phoenix you know how was your ship he was a zombie walking around he got beat up all night or whatever and and I just remember how how enthusiastic he would be about fires and man we got in there and we you know you know like most of us get and I could I could only think about them hitting that door getting in the worst smoke conditions and going to work and doing what he loved to do and never looking back going man we're in there this is what we do we gotta we got a good we got a worker you know what I mean and and so it makes me proud in my heart that he was where he wanted to be man he he was with his crew he was fighting fire obviously those circumstances that came from it or it was a bad day and so those were the little things that kind of started you know adding up to the pieces of the equation going you know the way that it did is that kind of where you wanted to yeah so so you're you're Captain Tarver now.

SPEAKER_04 38:50

Yes sir right and so you have you have the responsibility of being a company officer you've got now the responsibility where you've had the responsibility of of doing training inside your organization and and now you're doing this as an in addition to that responsibility what are the things that you know your history your your you know your connection to your brother your connection to the incident how is that like driving and changing and and and leading you know how you are now as an officer as a trainer as a leader I'll say first off more responsibility correct is that more more responsibility comes more you know our or what how they say that you know I'm talking about yeah as you move up you get more responsibility yep so I am responsible for a crew all right that's how I look at it but it but how we fix that how I look at it is we train we get we're on the same page we we we we build our toolbox to mitigate the hopefully the situation we don't all know the situation we get into but we build that and how do we do that we train so my passion I don't I think it was you I was talking about today but there's this old saying that I it used to bug me that if you can't do it you teach if you can't do you teach yeah I don't know if you guys have ever heard that or not those who can't teach or those that can't do teach those who can't teach teach Jim yeah that's how that is yes and it that always bugged me it always absolutely where that came from I have no idea because I'm telling you right now the the opportunity not only did I get to teach save your own because of Brett's fire and learn from Brett's fire it gave me an opportunity to bring what I've learned back to my department so that we can start mitigating issues that we might re or face in our department and ours first off is water supplies and resources.

SPEAKER_03 40:57

We don't you know we aren't we we don't have Phoenix's resources so we have to train on that and if we and I love being a part of the training because there it training gives you the opportunity you have your your specialties that you like that was one of my big special I love teaching that class I was so involved with it and I wanted to learn and I was going across the nation trying to learn more and more and more about people that have had liner duties armadays and learn what they did and what techniques they're using and what's the latest grade you know and all that stuff and being able to bring that back to my small department and and and and growing our people's knowledge. So it fills my heart to do that because I'm giving back but then as you grow up like we're just saying we get into more responsibility we we promote we we even you know grow up in the years of our service we now have what we have experience so just being able to pass on that experience you know what I mean like I raised my kids you may not want to take this road I've been down that road I know where you're heading you know and then they yell at you and they get mad at you but you you you know and so that's and that's what teaching has given me not only is that but how many times have you been asked to teach something that maybe it's something you haven't took I'll I'll use an example right now I remember this one salvage covers. Okay we all know what they are we know the tarps they're folded up in our you know there's ways to fold them and all that we're you know so I was asked to do a couple pro Bs or at the station they want to go over salvage man I had to go read the book real quick you know I mean it I know it's I know it sells small but it's something that we don't I I touched them in the academy. You know it this is just an example but training and teaching gives you an and it gives you the opportunities to to work and dabble in stuff that maybe you aren't comfortable in maybe you need more training and experience in and where can we do it best in a controlled environment in a training situation. So you know vent we don't vent we just don't have personnel to get people on roofs you know and we we vent but we it's very far down the priority list. So when I'm asked to go do a ventilate vertical ventilation at the academy man I kind of have to dabble back in the books and go man I hope you know and then try to learn see what some of the techniques are and lucky I you know I try to stay up on that stuff but do you know what I mean it gives you the opportunity to kind of get out of your own comfort zone because now you know you got all these little birds that you're feeding worms to and growing them and I don't want to sound like we never do this you don't need to do that. No we need to know how to do this we need to know how to do it right and safe so it teaches me again it reinvigorates me to get more involved and and expand more knowledge you know not just what I'm passionate about and kind of spread out so I I I I think just as a company officer back to your question and and and being able to embrace great growing my knowledge I'm I'm in a five day class today or this week I'm sorry to do that to be better. Not not that I have any anticipation of the test for battalion or anything but why not be prepared and why not understand the system better and and and how do I do that?

Remembering Brett And 9/11 Overlap

SPEAKER_04 44:28

I take the program I learn I build my tool chest I I I now can understand what they mean on that transfer or can command with me which which I have the base of and I know but it helps me you know what I mean hey Chief you missed this you know or or you know what I mean so training gives me the opportunity to give back give my experience my knowledge and then it also helps me build my tool chest so I'm curious like today's Thursday that's day four of our train the trainer class and that's that's Mayday day right so and it really is the why of blue card and it's the why this incident command system you know post 2001 is we do the things the the reason we do the things that we do the reason the system is the way it is what is it that you took away today so you had the first three days kind of the built in up building up in the in the system and in the blue card system and being IC one andor IC2 and then now we throw May days onto it and today tends to be what we would you know refer to as a lot of for a lot of students it's a light bulb moment it's like oh now I understand why this was so important on day two now I understand why these what they seem like small elements like why do you want me to use this order model? Why do you want me to utilize these tickets to communicate on the radio all those things where where now we're putting it all together and we're doing maydays what I'm curious what you took away from the week and then maybe today specifically you know the system I think blue card offers a system that we vitally have needed.

The Timeline And Tactics At Southwest

SPEAKER_03 46:17

You know we were talking earlier in class this this week that I mean we used to get all kinds of different sizes the first engine would go in and we'd get type A construction with multi-story 3000 square foot you know the and everybody's like what's a type A so it cleaned all that up to me. So when I when I had my opportunity to first go through the the simulators and all that with blue card I'll I'll be honest there was a little I don't want to say pushback there was like what are we doing now something else that's coming you know they the chief's gonna crack you know put this on us and now we got to go with this and it's not gonna last them you know but six months and we're back where we were you know but I I tell you if you if you are just step back and be humble enough to let the system and and allow to learn from what they're trying to teach you with this program and understand what it is they're trying to do because I 100% I believe that Phoenix Fire and Chief Bruno Sini then put the amount of money and work and effort into a system like this to not see it work and not and to see to to believe that it was going to fail. What I've seen from it is is it cleaned up it's got us all talking the same language at my department you know when when when engine one shows up or engine two shows up their size ups you know what you know what you got you know what they're doing you know where they're gonna do and where they're gonna be where we sometimes kind of had to question that coming in a second in engines you know did they get a water supply did they not are they doing this or you know mayday man what the biggest thing I can always say about any of this stuff is we got to watch each other. We got to take care of each other we got to watch our air we got to we got to rely on our training we got to train more we got to understand the system we got to understand the buildings we got to get out and see these things in the good environments we got to know our first dues we got to continue to grow our new people to so that they can be thinkers and not just doers. And so I think when it comes to Maydays and again you guys I'm close to to Brett's but this isn't even to take anything remote against any family any fire service any member that has lost their lives in the line of duty over the since fire has started to say that we need to do better and we can do better. And that is why I am in this program this week and and and not only that but my department my training chiefs the training battalion chiefs had the had the the support in me to send me here because they saw what I can do as you know I mean it builds confidence right so I think with Maydays I will tell you what I've learned is and and not only from the program besides I think it's getting better and it's doing better from talking with the people involved in Brett's fire is that we we have got to we've got to learn from these things we've we've got to figure out ways that we can keep our guys say my goal is always to get my guys home to their families and I think maybe man no one wants to hear that those those three awful words and it scares me every time even training the I'll I'll be I'll be honest with you guys I've been in the fire service like I said 24 years full time I'm a company officer we've run I've had my share of stuff and and and we're in simulators today and and and we have guys calling maydays and we're in a training clean clear environment and it sticks the hair up on my on my neck and my skin and I get goosebumps talking about it and we're training and we're trying to learn and be better about it and how to control and manage these things and and I I I'll be I don't know how Chief Wolf ran that assign or that that incident I I don't know how someone can be so unbelievably calm and clear and concise and and so you know some of the leadership I've seen throughout my career it's like that would never happen and it's gonna go wrong right there. You know what I mean and and but to to to hear that and to try to understand the confidence that he had in the ability of running that scene I mean a type a a five alarm fire I mean that this never hurt him in my we're not getting that big so I don't we used to do a drill in Sedona and I was a big part of running it and it was actually a hands on skill day drill and we do it every year as a refresher we'd run and set up we have an old annex building that used to be an old jail and all this part next to our station four and we'd run mayday drills actual hands on the component that I like that you brought up today was that you simmed and you went and did that kind of wasn't there yet it was Rick it was rapid it was it was this this two guys are going to go in two guys are going to get them out is that thinking still right so we we trained and did what we did with what we knew right to the to the the greatest that we could at that point by learning and getting out and and and getting be able to do these things so we put on a drill every year and it was a all the engines went through it all the companies went through it we we'd simulate a same kind of stuff collapse or fall through a floor or anything firefighter down missing made a call made a made a made on the you know training we do everything training but the just again a training environment where everything was safe we made it difficult because we want the guys to work we want to have a little stress we want them to get using air we want them to make it difficult and just the emotions that you know as I was proctoring I was always the proctor down on the firefighter and and working with the crews down there if I started seeing stuff or unsafe things or anything like that. And I mean I literally saw guys grabbing each other's coats ready to fist just the emotions from a training and I and and I always it's luckily and thank god I have never had a Mayday in our department that I you know I've been nothing and I I don't want one but learning and trying to see that environment in a controlled environment to if it ever really happened where what's gonna happen really is this just going to go awry and we're gonna be 13 14 may days in or we're gonna be you know so this program and and today I was I was so I I was one I was so honored to sit in this program and and today especially because I was really excited about today we we talked about it yesterday when we did uh uh change in strategy tactic you know defense to offensive we don't do that stuff a lot we don't train on that stuff a lot and and that's that's one component that can cause problems too right that change strategy maybe we didn't hear it maybe I'm too close why are we in why are we doing what we're doing made a I was so excited to be a part of this program or today this is what I was really excited about is to learn from these guys to learn from the program and to hopefully be able to be as calm as Chief Wolf was if this ever happens and and so to to keep my head to keep the calmness to keep the the the respect for the system and that's what blue card I think is is a system I I've never seen anything like this in my career. I you know you learn a little bit of IC stuff maybe going through a firebook and then it was just kind of department's whims or department's way and so today really brought home for me how nervous we were as students I'll just even speak for me to be being instructed by some really well versed and and experienced people that have done multiple these programs I'm sure you guys have seen them all and all seen all types it it that's a nerving component to it. But then to be the guy on the radio go man if this was real I just screwed that up that just made this work. You know and thinking about that right trying to because we said it the other day everybody wants to sound good on a radio I mean I want to sound good I want to sound like I know what I'm doing. And sometimes those things little little something happens and that just all went out the door and so I think from your your question the made ace aspect of it resonates with me not only because I'm close to it but I think we can continue to do better, can continue to learn from these things continue to be humble enough as a as a fire organization across the nation to say we can do better. We can learn new techniques it's okay to change when we need to change if things are working and they're working well don't if it's not broke don't fix it.

SPEAKER_04 55:32

But if they aren't it isn't working we need to be humble enough as an organization as a fire district or as a fire family across the nation we have got to be humble to and and I'm not saying that we don't I'm not saying and I again I don't want to sit here and take anything because I know these there's big departments that we're always fighting against that right human beings are always we're always fighting against that you know our our ego a little bit and our comfort and our experience to and there's things that get in the way of us getting better. I I think you're doing a great job of explaining that.

Becoming A Company Officer And Trainer

SPEAKER_03 56:07

Well I I I appreciate that I I man I the the last thing I ever want to do is I and please I hope if anybody does hear this I am not at all trying to pull a shadow on anybody I think everybody out there is trying to do the best they can with what they have and what system they're in and what what's going on in their in their in their little circle but I think we can do better. And I think we can do that by coming to programs learning different techniques learning different hearing different people listening to different podcasts listen to what's out there you know Sedona's a little circle of the world a little bitty circle footprint you know fingernail loaded so we don't I mean the opportunities that I get to grow is either by experience going wow that went wrong or we're not doing that one again or getting out and learning from the people that have done it and are there and are bigger and are busier. So I will tell you to answer your question I don't ever want to hear a media in the real life. Now I do feel that more training more taking this and not just leaving it on the shelf but learning and using it and and teaching it to my my my department and being a facilitator for it and learning more for it getting more comfortable with the program all the aspects of it to hopefully grow that when that does if it does that we are prepared for the event itself by hopefully getting our guy out of there not getting more guys into trouble and being able to then have a have a program or a process to take care of the families afterwards because there's there's there's something else to that I always thought about is like you know chief wolf I'll use chief wolf and and this goes for any battalion any ic anybody that's ever had to deal and I know there's hundreds of them a year do we do a good enough job saying hey are you okay you're the one outside you're not the one in there sweating and and I get that I because I'm not again I'm not taking nothing against I see are we and I know we do I I know this I know the answer to this but I it's always resonated means like I could not imagine going home that night as that I see and going wow what just happened you know you know and I and I'm not talking for Chief Wolf I'm talking for me in that perspective going I mean we just we just lost a a brother a fireman or you know I I don't I mean I I can't imagine the stress the hurt the the the the the questioning of yourself the did we do this did I do this right did I oh man did you know I mean in in that that that second thought process and and I mean do we do enough do we do a a good job taking care of those guys you know making sure they're okay I I can't imagine being the guy that's in charge of the whole entire thing and things are going bad left and right and it can keeps compiling and keeps compiling. The only way you can succeed with that is by staying calm do what your job put people in place keep your system working and knowing at the end of the day just like when we show up on any kind of our calls that we're there for Mrs. Smith and we're doing the best that we can with the abilities and capabilities that we have and believing that when we leave the scene that we didn't leave anything on the table or the shelf saying and we we missed that one should have done that better we do we will question ourselves all the time because we have pride but I I I just my heart goes out to these battalions and these ICs and these divisions and these you know the people that that was that was a very impactful across the nation again a hundred of them are average a year but just making sure they're okay you know making sure that that all people involved because I I I I can imagine because I can I'm on the floor I'm on the truck I step off put my boots on the ground and go to work so I know in an aspect I've never had to deal with one but I I I can kind of perspective myself into what I would feel like right if I was even involved in the scene or there or I was you know but to to and I and what do I get when I get to go home to my shift my station and I get to bounce stuff off the table with four or five six guys hey man we could have done this we could have Talk about this. We can do this. Hey, what do you guys think here? What do we need to do better? What right? We can help each other. That's what we do. We sit around that table and we help each other. We we talk things out. IC goes back to his little truck and he drives, you know, and I'm and I I know it's not that small, but do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:59

No, but it is different. You're you're 100% right. And to your point, just like everything else in the fire service, we can do better with supporting those ICs. We can do better with supporting really everybody that has something to do with tragedy or difficult incidents. And and and thankfully there's a lot of there's a lot of folks in the fire service that are working on it. But you're you're you're 100% right. At every level of an organization, at every in every position, we can do better, right? And that's the key is trying to figure out how to do better and and pushing towards that. I agree. And not I agree with you.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

Not being ashamed to do better. Yeah. Right? Not being too prideful to say we can do better. Hey, you know what? We tried to be better here, it didn't work. Let's re-brand again. Let's re-you know, and we don't want to go back to a circle, but you know what I mean. We need to keep moving down that road. 100%. This works, this works, this doesn't. This how much equipment have you guys seen in your careers that have come in and come out? And then that's some cool stuff that we have that is it's probably gonna be around for a long time. I mean, our turnouts are changing, our our trucks are changing, our our our our calls are changing, so we have to adapt to that. I mean, we got EV cars and stuff now. I mean, you didn't see that 30 years ago, and so we have to adapt. And not only that, you guys, the generational changes that we have in workforce. That's a huge piece of it. And if you don't have your old, callous, crusty, salty guys, and they're teaching these new people, they're the guys that'll walk over trash and just not have a bad day about it at all. Where our generation, man, we picked up trash, we took cover, so we're we're prideful, and and we gotta keep teaching that stuff because if we're gone and we're all gonna hang our hats up and helmets or whatever you want to call it someday, who's teaching them? What's that department gonna become? And we have to well, I'll say it, we have to leave some of our legacy there. And and that is by again, go back to training, go back to sometimes having those hard conversations. And and I man, I had some company officers growing up through my my ranks or my career. They flat told you how they were right there. And it and you know what I did, I embraced it. I didn't go home and cry. I didn't, you know, I I it I needed to hear it, and I needed to hear it that way, probably.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

You know what I mean? Well, I'll go a step further because uh as a as a fire chief, there aren't too many company officers or chief uh officers. I I think there's a lot of chief officers that were very honest with me. I didn't get a lot from the captain sometimes because they were guarded for whatever reason, you know, the prior chief wouldn't accept it or whatever. So I think having the conversation like you're having here today and modeling the fact that you've come in here without any any guard up and sharing, that's really what we all should do because we we could all benefit from from having that kind of authentic communication where we're not holding back, we're being respectful, but we're telling the truth. And with with with without without those barriers. So I I appreciate your candidness today because it's really it's refreshing because we don't get it a lot.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:05

Well, how many times do you get told I was at a uh Africa, Arizona Fire Chief Association conference this last one, and an unbelievable conference, by the way. I I really had a good time. I met a lot of fire chiefs, and it was really cool. And I was talking to one of the fire chiefs, and he asked me what my rank was. You know, like what's your position? And I said, uh just a captain captain. Man, he looked at me and he goes, He goes, No, no, I mean you're not just the captain. That's the most important position in the in the in the fire op, you know, in the house.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:36

Agreed.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:36

Or in the department, however you want to say organization. And but back to what you just say did is that your your captains were kind of guarded. And then you're told on one aspect that you're the most important position in the you know, in the in the in the organization, then you gotta talk. There's got somebody's gotta break that barrier down because if you don't know what your captains are doing, who are they're the face that people see when they leave, they pay. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:06

They the first people that see you are your are your patients, or your you might as well be the fire chief to the community because when you show up and you're helping the people, you're the person in charge, you're the most powerful person in the fire department to them, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:20

So it is huge. It is their their worst day, they're calling you to try to take care of it, mitigate it, right? And and what that to me, what it what I think what it means, like look, we can just talk about micromanagement. You know, micromanagement to me, all a micromanagement is a lack of trust. Yes, that's all that's that's that's how I sum it up. I mean, you can you can look up, type in leadership and get a definition. There's a thousand different ways to answer, right? Micromanagement is I don't trust you to do what I'm telling you to do, so I'm gonna make sure you're doing it the way I want you to do it instead of teaching me.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:54

Yeah, I don't trust myself.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:56

I don't trust myself to teach you. So I wouldn't have done it that way, or you know, or however that is. But you know what I mean? You know where I'm going to go. You can't, you gotta trust your folks. And and the same as a company officer just running my house, you have to trust your folks. I have to know what my guys are doing. One of my I I'm so close with my crew, I they'll come in and I can say, Are you okay today? Because I have that relationship with my crew, because I believe in my crew and I love my crew. And we have to be able to recognize those things because we're we're type A personality guys, right? We sometimes we wear our stuff really deep inside. We don't wear it outside a lot, you know what I mean? And you have to recognize that. If I don't trust what's going on with my crew, if there's problems, I'm the first thing I'm gonna be is their advocate. I'm gonna be there to help them do any way I can within my legal realm, right? But it's the same from from firefighter to engineer in our in our system, but all the way through the ranks. And we have to talk, we have to be on the same page, we have to understand. If we don't know the mission, we don't know the dream that the fire chief wants, then we're just running around with our heads cut off to kind of you know, tones go off. If it's major, hit me on the page or we're going out the door. And and and when trucks are rolling, 99% of the time, they're doing good jobs. You know what I mean? You don't really ever see that being the big problem. I mean, there's always something, but it's that if I don't know the mission and I don't know the dream, then what am I? I'm just going to work to be a worker, and you know, you know what I mean. So we gotta understand that part of it because I'm not a fire chief, I've never been a fire chief, but I can only imagine we were talking about it today at lunch, and that's I'm gonna tell you guys something else about V Shift and any program that I've ever had the opportunity to attend is the networking. Talk about what we're learning, what you guys have filled our cups up with on educational pieces and the program, but the networking that you get. I mean, I'm with guys today from all around the country, and and it's funny talking to talking to these individuals, and it's like that's the same problem we deal with. But same characters, different names. Yeah, oh man, and you can attach those those faces to it, right?

Why Blue Card: System, Language, Clarity

SPEAKER_01 1:08:17

We always say it's the same 11 people at every fire department.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:20

Yeah, you've got the same personality. Yeah, we call it the 10%ers out of the 90. 90 want to do a good job and be good guys, and 10 bring it down. You know what I mean? So uh but it it but you have to be on that page, you have to follow that mission, you got to understand the mission. And I really believe that when Chief Bruni Cini had this happen under his watch, that he needed to reevaluate the mission. And that's what I do, I I truly believe. That's what not only the blue cloud developed from it, but the recovery process, everything that Phoenix went through was we were heading down this mission, but we've got to change that mission. We we get we gotta do better. And like you said it the other day, you flipped it all over. It wasn't that crew, it wasn't that individual, it wasn't that, you know. It we gotta look at this.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:09

It was the fire service. I mean, that was the way that we were all doing it. And and and had it not been for the the the Brett Tarver recovery process that we all know now, I don't know where we would be as a fire service because Phoenix thought they were hitting it out of the park every time, right? And and I don't think they're and and and I'm not saying this just because these are the folks we're associated with, but we we see anywhere from a cavalier attitude to a protectionist attitude to you know that just part of the job, you know, and and departments that don't go in depth the way that Phoenix did in the five-year recovery period where we all learn so much from it. I mean, I I don't know of any other now now there are recovery processes out there where we did learn a lot, but when I I look at the the revolution that happened in the fire service after March 14th, 2001, it's incredible. I wish it didn't happen. I'm sure you wish it didn't happen. But what we learned out of it has just been immeasurable. Because I don't know how many more line of duty depths we would have. If nobody looked at really, you know, maximum entry depths, having a tactical reserve, let's manage our air, let's not add 400 feet of inch and a half hose. And although there's still places doing it, we got a lot better because of it. I cannot disagree with you at all, 100% spot on. Is there is there any other questions that you'd want to ask?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:39

No, I don't think so. I I think we've we've you've done a great job of kind of kind of going through that stuff. I I I feel pretty comfortable and confident, you know, with you know what you've represented. I think it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:54

Are there anything is there anything else you want to say about you know either either Brett or your your whole process of getting here and and and what it's meant?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:03

The only thing I can say is I it's an honor to be here talking with both of you. I really truly I mean that. Bottom of my heart, I mean that. And every time I get to talk about my brother, he's still there, right? He's still here, and he's still in here. So having these opportunities and discussing it and to get to know who he was as a person, as a fireman, as a family man, is is an absolute honor to be able to share that with you guys. I I I hope we had I I feel like it was a great conversation. Absolutely. I think we I think we could probably take notes and we probably could start up a whole bunch of different avenues that we talked about. But uh no, I really appreciate this opportunity. I really it's an honor to be here with you. I John, I thank you. I really, I really appreciate being able to share.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:55

Well, thanks for your time and your candor and and and sharing with us because it's uh when when we met on Monday, I I I reached out to Chris and I was like, I think I want to ask him to be on the podcast. And he's like, that's a great idea. And I'm I'm really glad you you took us up on this and and you came in and hung out with us. And it's been great having you in class. I mean, you're a great communicator and and an authentic person, so we really appreciate that, Jerry.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:19

I I'm humbled for you to say I I thank you for asking. I'm that you know, I I know sometimes that can be kind of hard. Right. You know, man, I'm so humbled that you asked. Um again, I really appreciate this opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:36

Before we go, do you want to do a timeless tactical truth from Alan Brunacini? You bet. All right, let's do it. This timeless tactical truth from Alan Brunacini. We're naturally geared to go forward. We don't retreat well. We must practice the tactical agility of making new turns when necessary. It's kind of like the the lumberman fire you were talking about. You know, we're so we commit so much, then we don't do anything to revise our incident action plan, and we lock in on that incident action plan. Do you have any thoughts on that truth?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:15

I I I 100% I think what you just said on it is the is the truth. We our our job, our belief, our our everything that's inside of us tells us to go in there, stay in there, fight the fight. We just said a little bit more, just a little bit more. Well, my red lights flash, a little bit more, just a little bit more. And we have to start recognizing that if I'm 50% in, I better use 50% to get out. And we need to recognize those factors, those tactical priorities, all those things early. We got to have good eyes outside, good good people in command positions to be able to watch those things for us outside, relying on our engineers and our and our pump men that that are outside before us to and be in our eyes that are firsthand engines and stuff. And I think by recognizing those scenes and recognizing conditions, understanding the the the what-ifs. If I'm doing this, what happens here? Or if I'm doing this, I better have something to back it up. So I think making a U-turn doesn't make you a coward, doesn't make you a uh any less of a fireman. It makes you a smart fireman, makes you a more prepared and a better person to recognize and be humble that I need to turn around here. We need to leave. This something's is not right. So I think we've we've got to be able to keep instilling and keep learning and keep growing to recognize the problems that are faced in front of us and then addressing them and being able to say, you know what, it's not working. It's time to pull out.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:50

Jarrett Tarver, thank you so much for spending time with us today here on the B Shifter Podcast. It's been an honor and uh looking forward to spending more time in class with you tomorrow. And hopefully we can have you back sometime. We're not that far from anytime.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:03

Anytime. I it's an hour drive. So yeah, it's been humble. I'm I'm honored to be here, and thank you so much for asking, and and thank you for your time and your instruction this week. All right, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:13

I appreciate that. And thank you everyone for uh listening and being with us today on the B Shifter podcast. We'll talk again next week.