You Are First Due - Now Own it!

This week, we’re joined by two outstanding guests: Erik Phillips, Captain with Las Vegas Fire & Rescue (Nev.) and Fire Chief of Diamond Valley Fire Department (Utah), and Gary Fleischer, District Chief with Worcester (Mass.) Fire Department.

Together, we challenge first-in officers to own their role with clear expectations, disciplined size-ups, and early, coordinated assignments outside the IDLH. We dive into the culture of training, monitoring, and accountable improvement—and how Blue Card turns noise into command during the first five minutes.

You’ll hear stories, tools, and drills on:
• Defining first-due ownership and IC-1 expectations
• Using preplans and everyday calls as micro preplans
• Turning smoke detector checks into high-yield life safety work
• The four-step model: expectation, training, monitoring, accountability
• Level 1 staging as a tool, not a delay
• Eliminating freelancing and duplication of effort
• Building judgment through radio reps and tactical decision games
• Using AARs, hot washes, and audio reviews for continuous improvement
• Reinforcing culture to avoid accidental success and drift
• And a timeless tactical truth: See before you speak

Tune in, train hard, and lead with clarity.
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Transcript

Setting The Table: First-Due Focus

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Welcome to the Gift Podcast. We got John Bay here today along with Gary Fleischer and Eric Phillips joining us. And the topic is your first do. Now own it. We'll get some perspectives from Gary as a response chief and also a perspective from Eric, who is a company officer and both Blue Card trainers. So they're they're able to meld the system and the world of Blue Card into what those expectations are of a first arriving officer and why their role is so important in not only having an incident action plan that is transmittable and doable from other companies coming in, but how that leads to the command transfer and overall success on the fire ground. So before we get going, guys, great to see you. I know uh we were together at the uh blue cart hazard zone conference just a couple of weeks ago. Gary taught this class. Uh, your first do now own it at the at the conference. So that's why we wanted to revisit it on the podcast today. But uh, how are you guys both doing today?

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Yeah, doing great, successful conference, had a great time. Uh, really good attendance out there. Good to do some dent working.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Yeah, we're doing good. It was fun last week getting uh to catch up with everybody and kind of hear some some new classes. And I'll tell you what, this class that Gary did really got a lot of traction and hear a lot of good feedback. So it'll be excited to talk about that today here on the podcast.

“Own It” Defined: Expectations For IC-1

SPEAKER_01 2:30

All right. So let's uh let's jump into it. So your first two now own it. How do you set this up for your class, Gary? And what do you mean by now own it?

SPEAKER_02 2:40

So, you know, this uh the whole idea of you know making sure that we do a good job training up these guys that are IC number one, because it's it could be the toughest role on the fire scene, is being a company officer and having that responsibility. It's the only time you act at the task tactical and strategic level all at the same time. So we're tasking a lot of these guys, especially uh when you're coming in the past when you didn't have a system that was measurable and trainable, like like Blue Card is that uh you know, how do they know how to do that? So I've always I've been looking over the last couple of years since we started doing Blue Card. Like, what can I do to help these guys out to get them to be able to do that role, be successful, and have the confidence to get the thing done. As far as the name goes, I gotta be honest with you. One time we were in, we were at headquarters and there was a bunch of chiefs talking about a past fire that we had had in my group, and they they mentioned the company officer, and the chief of the department goes, he goes, that guy owned it. He's just laid the groundwork for everybody else. And I'm like, you know what? That's that's kind of a good you know mantra. Like, I'm gonna teach you guys, or I'm gonna help help you guys learn that you're confident enough that you're gonna you're gonna own it. So that's kind of how the how the program came around. And it was it's basically just kind of explaining like how I do that as a district chief, as a the boss of a number of company officers.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

And how how do you do that and what's your expectation of those company officers when they arrive before you do? What what what do you expect them to do?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Well, when we when we start the class, I I start with uh a quote from the late Lieutenant Andy Fredericks. And you know, he's got that uh the book of Andy that now that came out, he's a bit of a wordsmith, just a lot like uh Alan Bruncini was with his timeless tactical truth. And it's uh as goes the first line, you know, so goes the fire. And we hear that in all sorts of different forms from all sorts of different people, but you know, that is not so much about that first line, but it's that first company officer. You know, he's setting the tone for that. So the first thing I ask the students is like what does your department do to set expectations for officers? And every time the first guy's hand goes up, is like, oh, you passed the test, you're an officer, here you go. But you have to look a little deeper, like it's not always SOPs. It can be an informal, it can be kind of a culture thing, it can be done through training. Maybe you don't really notice it. And if you know, the this class, the the speech that I do, the class that I do, it could be for a company officer, could be for an aspiring company officer, or it could be a guy like me that's a district chief or a battalion chief that's that needs to help improve these guys. And uh it might be you that's setting expectations. Maybe you're setting those expectations on myself, on yourself. Maybe you're maybe you're reaching out as a company officer, your district chief, and asking that same question, John, that you just asked me, hey chief, what are your expectations for me? And uh it's me setting those expectations, you know, for my guys. So to answer your question in a roundabout kind of way, I just expect them to do all the things that we teach when we teach our command system in in my department, which is heavily blue card based. And those are the expectations I set for them. There's you know, we we we use it all the time in all sorts of different types of incidents, and we can't see that go away when you actually get to a fire and you revert back to your own place.

Pre-Arrival Work And Preplans That Matter

SPEAKER_01 6:28

As someone who supervises multiple companies when you're on shift, let's lay the groundwork for the the pre-arrival work that company has to do before the call even comes out. Like, what what are your expectations of that company before the bell even rings?

Hard Lessons: Smoke Alarms And Lives

SPEAKER_02 6:47

So there's a lot of expectations that that you know, informally I'll talk to guys about whether it's one-on-one or at a call or in training, but you know, we're we're we're actually right now we're shifting between uh pre-planning uh computer systems. So our pre-planning that will now be all available right there on the iPads that we have in the vehicles. So, I mean, we got what eight categories of critical fire ground factors, and I think three of them are fixed. So, like those three fixed things are right there on that iPad for you. And even more than that, like that's available to everybody that didn't do the inspection. But what are the expectations that we set for our people when they do an inspection? You know, that has nothing, has nothing to do with operating in the command system, but that is one thing that just helps you with those critical fire ground factors. When you pull up and you and we expect you to do a good size up and a good initial radio report, you know, setting the expectations like, hey, you're gonna do an inspection, you're gonna do a good job, you're gonna you're gonna look for these critical fireground factors, and then you're gonna insert them in the report. So not only do you see them when you're doing an inspection and your guys, but everybody that that reads that report or looks at that structure, you know, in the iPad will have some of those critical fire ground factors before they even go there. It's secondary to that is we have to remember that as firefighters, we're invited into people's homes and businesses all the time for so many different things. It smells like natural gas in here, there's some smoke, there's a weird odor, we have a medical call. Those are all opportunities for us. You don't have to do a full-blown inspection, but those are all opportunities for us to realize what's going on in that building. And I'll sidetrack from that a little bit because it's a good lesson, I think, for everybody. I I learned this lesson the hard way. I was a company officer on an engine company, and we used to go to this one house that had two elderly women that were in it, that were both had medical issues, and and one of the sons was there that lived with them to help take care of them. And we would go there all the time. And we knew the house, we knew how to get in, we knew where the doors were, we knew where the rooms were on that first floor because we were always going to a different room to see one of these elderly ladies. And never once, as a company officer, never once did I think about checking their smoke detectives. Never once. And then one faithful night, three o'clock in the morning, we get a call for a building fire. It's this house. The fire is going from Bravo to Delta, right across the alpha side, blocking all the front doors. We get off the truck, and no sooner do we start to roll out, you know, do our IEP, we get completely sidetracked by a police officer that says, Hey, there's a woman in the bedroom on the Delta side, and my partner's trying to climb in the window. And, you know, we had to go over and we had to grab a ladder and go over there and get the cop down out of the window first, and then go in and grab this woman and pull her out over a ground ladder. It was a it was a forced VEIS, right? But you know, I look back at that and and you know, in the investigation, their smoke detectors weren't working. And I look at that and I say, you know, look, guys, you're being invited in here. Every time you go into a building should be some type of a pre-plant, some type.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

I totally agree with that. Every department that I've worked at since this incident happened in New Jersey, where a department goes out for a smell of smoke in a residence. There were five children and a babysitter there. The the parents were out of town and they could not find the smell. The fire department was on the scene for well over an hour trying to find the source of the smell. They couldn't find it. They cleared, they came back at three o'clock in the morning to a fully involved structure fire. All six occupants were killed in that fire. And the uh after action, they determined no working smoke detectors in that building. So I took that as a lesson. And every time we went out, we we carry a smoke detector kit on every engine. And whether it's a medical call, whatever we're there for, we're gonna check a smoke detector and with a command strip, put it up so we're not drilling a hole, but we're leaving a smoke detector behind at least one, if if there's not one there, because you're you're exactly right. We we know that we can save more lives with that smoke detector than probably anything else that we're going to do for that family. So that that's that's an excellent uh story.

The Expectations Model: Tell, Show, Monitor, Lead

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Yeah. So hopefully, you know, people will take away if nothing else from this podcast, take that away. And um, you don't want to be in a situation I was in or those guys in New Jersey. That's that's awful. So after we asked the department about about the students about, you know, what the department does for setting expectations, we talk about well, what can we do or what can we request that our chiefs do for us to you know help help us along. And it's that it's that four steps of you know setting those expectations. And I gotta give this to Terry Garrison. He kind of came up with, I don't know, maybe maybe he's the next guy, maybe there'll be a book of Terry someday. But he came up, he said, uh, he said, yeah, you know, when you talk about that expectation model, the the firefighters, if something goes wrong, they're gonna say, Hey, you never told told me, you never showed me, you never stopped me, and you never led me. And like that kind of lines up with these four steps, right? So you set the expectations of what you want them to do, but that's not enough. You got to train them, you have to show them. And that's kind of where we get into a little bit of the of some training stuff that we can do outside of the fire ground. And uh, I'll give you a couple examples of that in a minute, and then monitoring the officer, right? So I'll talk about a couple of ways that we kind of monitor the officer, and then we'll talk about holding them accountable, which is not a negative thing, you know, that's that's kind of a positive thing. So, you know, first and foremost, we want them to be critical thinkers, right? And uh critical decision makers and use our strategic decision-making model and our risk management plan. So we'll talk about that uh, you know, a little bit. But I'll give you one example that you have to match, you have to have a workable order of operations, right? So when you match your training to your department, it isn't necessarily gonna be, you know, A, B, C, D, that's the way blue card does it, that's the way you have to do it. You have to match your your your department to you know the blue card model. And we have simulations that we use when we do, you know, the train the trainers and we do the the practical sessions for for the original blue card certification, and they're set up on iPads, and the iPads are all set up on a timer, and you have to write these simulations in a very specific way or it'll throw the timing all off. So when we do simulations, it's initial radio report, it's follow-up report, it's engine two shows up on scene, ladder one shows up on scene, battalion one shows up on scene, and then it rolls out from there. And you don't give assignments to any of those companies until they level one. So in our system, if you look at our city, we're kind of shaped like a diamond, and in the very middle of the city is where it's really densely populated. And you know, we used to have companies all over the city, you know, in the 1900s, in all single engine houses and two engine houses. And you know, over the years, the companies they're no longer, you know, horse-drawn or whatever, they can get to the scene faster. Now, this the number of stations kind of dwindle, and the number of companies kind of dwindle, and and then they move from these small stations into like a big station. So in our downtown area, we have like four pretty large stations. The smallest of which is an engine, a ladder, and the biggest which, the biggest of which has two engines, a ladder, and a heavy rescue. And when we get a call in that center of the city, you can have you know seven apparatus all revolve all arrive within like a minute and a half of each other. So our deployment model like changes just a little bit. We don't necessarily wait till level one to give them assignment, but the key is we have to use the order model, right? So what we teach our guys with the expectations that I set for them, and then we practice this in our training sessions, is that you use your strategic decision-making model to do your initial radio report, and then you get out of the cab of the truck and you start your 360. Well, as you're starting to do that physical 360, that's a perfect time to give out assignments to who you know is gonna be next. And if they're not next, they're 10 seconds behind the next truck because they're so congested. And uh using an order model, so you know that they get the message, and and everybody knows that hey, you just called engine two and they're gonna feed engine one, and you just called ladder three, and they're gonna set up their apparatus and go in for a primary search. So everybody has that that level of knowledge of what everybody's doing, but it has to be done in order model. Then they they complete their follow-up, and by then, here's another thing we have to work on is training our firefighters to do tasks without that company officer having his hands on that hose line. How can you effectively deploy a hose line to where it has to go and be ready for the officer or or start in so the officer can follow you in? How can you do that quickly with the manpower that you have? And that's kind of how we we set up that model. The nice thing about that is you are outside the IDLH when you're giving all those orders. I mean, that's why in our command transfer, that second IC, IC number two, he's doing most of the talking on that because we expect IC number one to be in the IDLH. That's not easy to do, it's not easy to hear in there, it's not easy to talk through your mask in there. So that's why we like doing some of those, some of those assignments, IP plus two plus three, while you're still outside just before you you entered the building.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Eric's in a well-staffed department, too. Do you find that to be true, Eric, at your department where you have that many resources stacking up behind IC number one? Or are you a little more spaced out? And then a second part of that question is then how do you handle that from what what Gary's talking about?

Matching Blue Card To Your Deployment

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Yeah, I think that's a great thing that you got to combat. We work right down in the middle of the city, so we do get stacked up very, very quickly in downtown where I where I work at. And I think the the best part about the system is that it gives you the ability to address those critical factors and then make assignments. So there are times that I'll show up on scene and I get a next in unit right right behind me, and I'm not maybe not even out of the cab of the truck yet. We'll just have them level one stage because I don't know where the best uh place to put them in. And so knowing the system, but really understanding it, the system, I think there's a difference. And that difference is it's okay to keep somebody level one if you really don't know where you want to put them based on those critical factors. And I think that's the the awesome part about the class Gary's talking about is own it. Owning that is putting people in the right position when needed, and if we just show up the scene and start putting units where we think they need to go, a lot of times it's wrong because we haven't got that 360 or we haven't have a complete understanding of the call of where we need them, and so understanding the system that sometimes it's okay if we get stacked up that quick. I I know we're gonna go to work. Maybe I'll bring you on deck as a holding location, maybe I'll assign you as soon as I know where I want to put you. That is the best, most correct assignment. Then we'll go and assign them. So I think that knowing the system, but truly understanding the ins and outs and how it works for your organization is key when you talk about that first in company officer. I mean, there's nothing more than I love being first in. I mean, that that's what we live for is to be first into those fires. But I think as a company officer, the second part of that is not only wanting to be first in, but able to run that call correctly, and I'll use the word correctly, if you will, by owning it and putting people in the correct position the first time so we have the best outcome, not only for the you know, patients or victims that are inside, but also the building and the firefighters themselves. So that's only done and successful when you have a system that's in place and you actually know how to use it. And the chief said it best is you got to set out those expectations. And so for our department, you know, we we set out those expectations. Really, what is that first and company officer expected to do? They're gonna show up, give an initial radar report, get out, do a 360, communicate the fall report. We're gonna uh be expected assigned, you know, two to three units, and then a standard transfer command with that incoming the battalion chief or IC number two. And we may get through some of that before the command transfer. We may get through all of it. It just depends on how people are arriving, where the fire is, and you know, if other companies are assigned or not. But having that expectation as a company officer gives me a good uh foundation for what I'm gonna do up, what I'm gonna do on really any scene. There are things that get thrown at you that get you off track, but having that system in place and knowing it gets me back on track when I get a little sidetracked. If I've got uh you know people in the front yard screaming at you, yelling at you, trying to tell you everything. You've got units that are showing up on scene, so you're getting distracted with that. But having the system and knowing that, hey, here's my objectives and here's what I'm I'm striving for on every call really keeps me grounded and allows me to really own that call. And uh, there's nothing better when you have a well-run incident based on those factors that you're addressing as they get presented to you.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Yeah, to Eric's point, too, like uh, you know, when we set this expectations about you know our company officers, like, hey, we expect you to go level one if you're not first two. You can't just you know make a decision like I think I'm gonna move up. No, no, you gotta stay level one. And the expectations that we give to, you know, our you know, if there those officers are gonna be first two, is like if you if you know you have some tasks that you need help with and you can assign them ASAP, like you don't have to wait until your follow-up is done. You know, like that that's that's kind of the key there. So like we typically we because we're so condensed like that, we typically don't have the first in company take a water supply. It's usually the job of the second. And every situation is different. If you pull up and you're on a hydrant and you're hooked tight, then you know, obviously you don't need it. But you know, so it's those officers have to, you know, if they give out those orders really quickly like that, it better be just because you you need to accomplish a certain task based on the critical fire ground factors, it's not just to do it, to Eric's point, right? It's you have you got to be level one, you gotta be, you gotta be level one.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Just something that I'm curious about, Gary, is how often is it that you get their IAP plus two or three and you don't accept that that and you make a change, or because of your training and the way that you're working with these companies, are the company officers usually correct in what they're identifying as the incident priorities and and their incident action plan?

Orders Outside IDLH And Early Assignments

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Yeah, I I can't honestly can't remember uh a time that I that I got there and changed what somebody was doing. So I guess that's I never really it's off like that, but I guess that's it means it's it's working, right? And yeah, I mean, later in the we we talk all the time when we do trainings, like later in the fire, it's you know, the typical company officer is like, give me two more minutes, chief. Well, no, that I mean that's a different story, but uh usually initial initial uh tasks are usually done the decisions are correct, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

And and that's and that's really where training those company officers and making those decisions and and being able not only to identify what their company is going to do, but maybe what the next couple of companies need to do or some other tasks that need to be taken care of is so important, and and everybody's on the on the same page with that because you know the the old model was we got off the truck and just went to work, and in that model, not only was there safety issues, there was also a duplication of work because people would go to where they wanted to go, and typically that was the seat of the fire, so you'd end up with two or three hose lines on the fire, and then no one doing support work or no one helping you get to the seat of the fire, and and you know, all the problems that occur there, so yeah, and it was a it was a race for the ladder companies to get there first so they could go to the roof and open a hole no matter where the fire was.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

It's just like we're opening up, and uh like there's a lot of freelancing, and then the the other phenomenon too is is you know, we had some really great fire chiefs, but the culture was you come to a fire and you're going to work, and there was no until they started like really pushing writ, there was no tactical reserve. There was none. We need more help, bang another alarm, and then you know, you gotta wait for them to get there. So that's changed too, and you know, that's kind of expectations that were set upon us by you know our our bosses, like you gotta make sure that that you have a tactical reserve, that you have companies on deck and level one or level two until you know you're under control.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

So go going back to the first two, they they've done their 360, they're they're starting to give their assignments. That then then where are we at in that process of owning it?

Stacking Resources, Level One Staging Done Right

SPEAKER_02 24:36

So yeah, then we're gonna come up with the the command transfer. So we really wanna this is where the training part comes in. So we've set the expectations that that's what what they're gonna do, but now we got to help with the training. So we have a number of things that, or at least I have a number of things that I do. We have in-station drills that we can do. I'll I'll talk about those. We have training at at the at the training grounds or at you know an acquired building or a building that somebody lets you use. One of the things we have a lot of parking garages in the city, and a parking garage, if you get permission from the owner, is one of the best places that you can do training because you can find a time that it's usually not busy, you can bang around the staircases and there's no sheetrock, you're not going to make any dents or make it dirty, and you can flow water and it's it's not an issue. It's really a good place. If you don't have a training tower and you got a parking garage and you get permission, that that works great. The other thing we do for training is we run the system on everything that has a multiple company response. Doesn't matter if it's a gas call, boiler problem, electrical problem, central station alarm. We run it all the time from initial radio report to command transfer if necessary, and and you know, the tickets to get on the radio. And then the other thing that we like to use is uh radio traffic. So we have a couple of options to to listen to radio traffic, to actually have a full recording of it is a little bit more difficult for the system we're in. Hopefully, it's going to get corrected with a new recording system soon. But you know, you have your online things too, like broadcastify and stuff like that. But that self-reflection for an officer just to listen to what he did on the last incident, and and you know, uh Eric will talk about in a couple of minutes about the AAR program. But that just self-reflection like that for an officer, hey, hey man, this is what you sound like. What do you think? And and and let them kind of look at themselves. So one of the things that that we do, uh obviously what we can do is use a blue card simulation. And a lot of people don't realize this, even instructors, that there is, I don't know if either one of you guys know how many, but there is a lot of them that are pre-made on the blue card website, on the B shifter website, that you can download and load into your iPads that are not the big five that we use during during trainers. There's like 45 of them. And then one of the other great things we do, because sometimes that can be cumbersome, you have to have enough people to play the roles. But one of the things that I really have I've been using it off and on for a year, but now I'm really getting into it is these tactical decision games that are authored by Ed Harton. And he has his own his own uh website that you can find these on. Uh, you can find a link for that in if you get the the buck slip.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

And hey, if a guy doesn't know how to get a buck slip, John, how how do they how do they sign up for the right in the show notes? So you can look at our show notes here, sign up there, go to b shifter.com, bottom of the page, you can sign up there, and then all everything that we put in the buck slip, article-wise and podcast-wise, you can also get at b shifter.com.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Okay, so if if if you want to get to Ed Harden's website for his tactical decision games, I believe his website is Command Confidence. If you want to go there, look at the buck slip, look at the b shifter website. These are these are great games. Some of them he actually he builds them on he builds them on uh actual fire incidents that are usually pretty recent. He has all sorts of information about the fire that he puts in there. Some of them have videos, which are really awesome if you can have pre-arrival videos, and then they'll have a video of the incident scene. So he'll he has a number of questions that he lays out first, and all those questions are the same on every single one of these tactical decision games he has. And it's it's all about you know arriving first. And you know, what are you talking about with your crew before you get there? What do you already know about the building? What's your initial radio report going to sound like? And you actually, you know, cite it and you go right through that that that blue card model, and then he goes on with some further questions later. And he may say, Okay, for questions one and two, I want you to watch the first 10 seconds of the video. Then for questions three, four, and five, watch the next 20 seconds of the video. And you know, we'll I'll walk downstairs in the fire station. The guys will be sitting around the table downstairs just watching fire incidents on YouTube trying to learn. This is right up their alley. Like it, I think it works really good. We can do them individually. You could send them out to an officer and say, Hey, go over this. I'll see you on Tuesday and we'll talk about it. I typically tend to get like four companies together and we do it as a group, and we'll have one person kind of go through and answer the questions, and then we'll have an open-ended conversation about it. I really think that that those those are really those are really great for us. It really gives them fires when they're not actually going to a fire. Uh go ahead, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah, Ed's formatted that beautifully. I I was talking with him when we were at the conference, and he calls it the 10-minute drill. It's a 10-minute drill, but 10 minutes is is the time span that he's looking at, it's not how long the drill is because we'll sit in the firehouse when I'm going through this, and it's an hour plus long conversation sometimes. So, what it's a little misleading, and I think Ed kind of sucks us in that way because I think these are awesome drills that he puts together. It's really the first 10 minutes of the incident that we're looking at. That's the 10-minute drill. It's gonna take you a little longer than 10 minutes if you're gonna do it right. So I wanted to throw that.

Avoiding Freelance: Clear Roles And Reserve

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah, and you know what? Everybody seems to get engaged with it, you know. So it's it's good. It's a it's even if they think they're there for they're gonna be there for 10 minutes, they don't, you know, that they they're still in engaged with it. And in fact, uh the two sessions, uh the breakout sessions I did on Friday, Ed was not busy. So I had Ed come in and and talk to the students for about 10 minutes about his program, just because I think you know it's it's been Pretty successful. And again, I'm just starting to use it again, uh, the last couple of months. And uh I'm really trying to push up, especially over the winter, because that's a great thing to do when not not that that's Eric's problem, but like over the winter when we can't like get out and flow water a lot in the northeast, you know, it takes up some good time. But then the other thing we like to do is, you know, in practical sessions, we try and use our burn building. And if you have a training building or a burn building and it's been there for a while, you struggle a little bit with this thing that that I guess I call make-believe land. Everybody just kind of knows where every door leads and every window, and it's just like kind of complacent. So, how can we make that burn building more realistic? If we're actually doing live fires and it's a sunny day, you can't even see the fire. Like, even if the window's open, you have trouble seeing it. Just burning straw and pallets. So, one of the things that I tried a couple months ago seemed to work out pretty good was we took a picture of an actual fire, we laminated the card and we gave it to everybody in the first two arriving rig. And then we set the burn building up to kind of match the layout, right? So we said, look, this picture matches the back side of the burn building, which we'll call the alpha side for this event. This door in the picture matches this door in the burn building, and then see these two windows that are on fire in this picture. We took those windows and we put traffic cones in the windows to simulate, like, hey, those that's the windows that you just looked like looked at the picture. And then we took some cones and put them up on the roof line. So we're responding to this wood frame house, and it's like, hey, you're gonna pull a line here, and we're gonna expect you that you're gonna quick hit it while your officer's doing a 360, wash those eaves, so we're trying to keep it from going in the attic, and then you know, mask up and you know, take turns masking up because that's that's what we do usually. One guy can do a quick hit with the nozzle, the backup guy's masking up, then they switch, backup guy takes the nozzle, nozzle man masks up. By the time the officer comes around, they're right ahead in that door. So that worked pretty good for us. And then, of course, like I said, we we you know, we do this, we do it every day. We you know, we do our you know, everyday company drills, and every day we're operating on incidents we're using the system. So that's kind of how we set our our training up.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Eric, do you do something similar with your company? And how do you prep your guys and gals for operating to your expectations?

Training That Sticks: Daily Reps And Radio

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Well, I think that that expectation goes up and down the chain. I I agree with what Chief's saying there, that uh he's training with his company officers. And I think it goes down the chain that when we look at a an incident, uh, whether it's in training or a live incident, so we got to all evaluate at those critical factors along the same fields. As I'm looking at it as a company officer for the critical factors and going through the strategic decision-making model, I need my firefighters to be looking at it for their level of the critical factors that are pertaining to the firefighters. So if we look at a building and Chief brought up, you know, that quick hit or transitional attack, that exterior water, you know, I need to be able to size this up. And based off my initial radio report, I need my firefighters to be understanding and looking at that building, where are they pulling the hose to, where are they stopping, where are they starting to flow water. When you start the flow water, where are you putting your stream first, high, low, in the middle? They're all decisions that they have to make at that firefighter lever based on my my initial radio report or the critical factors that we're facing there. So as it's awesome to sit with the chief and the company officer and talk about those critical factors, I think that company officer then needs to go back to a station and start talking about those critical factors based, you know, with their firefighters or even their engineer. Like, hey, what are you gonna do? Where are you gonna park? How are you getting your water supply, all those things that pertain to that to whatever rank you're in, you've got to sit there and talk about that. So we're on the same page. You know, whether we want to admit it or not as company officers, we actually do like it when the chief comes by and talks about fire. I think that is from an IC1 standpoint, I want to be on the same IAP that my my chief is. We want to be synced together. That when we look at a building, we're thinking, you know, these are the assignments that we need to get done. This is how we're gonna do it, and this is best for whatever fire that we're going to. And we only achieve that by sitting down at the table, looking at the same fires, going to the drill field and talking about those critical factors. And hey, there's a lot of ways to do different tasks on the fire ground, but maybe this is what I'd like to see based on these critical factors, based on what we're what we're seeing there. So, you know, at first when you have a chief come by, sometimes it can be a little um it can be a little intimidating, it can be a little nervous, but the more that you interact together, the stronger the fire ground will be because you're thinking along the same lines on that fire ground. And to me, there's nothing better than a well-run fire when you have IC one and I see number two in sync on the same sheet of music moving forward. And it only gets there by like Chief saying, you got to spend time with each other, you know, and so I think that's important going up the chain, but also down the chain as well. You know, one thing you brought up, uh Chief Flusher, that I think uh, you know, that level one staging, and we hear it all the time. And I don't want a level one that's taking up radio traffic. I'll tell you what, working in the city and same as you, there's many times that the wheels don't even stop turning on that next two engine or truck because you already know what those assignments are. You just need them to say they're on scene, level one, and you're giving them an assignment right away. So I think there's a misconception on you know, really what is that level one for and what is it doing for that first and incident commander? And for me, when units level one stage, I either know what I'm doing with them right away, or I'm bringing them on deck, or I'm just telling them, hey, hold on, I don't have the complete picture yet, or heck, it may be a little pot on the stove, and I don't even need everybody. And so I I think that that's kind of our best friend is having people, you know, level one or announce their own scene, and then I'm either going to put them to work or I'll let them go home, depending on what the scene is. But that's what that's the true value in the system when we look at as a whole, uh, when it pertains to that level one stage. And there's many times they they're going right to work because I already know what I need to need to do with them, and I think uh that's important to convey as well when we talk about that level one.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

I don't know of anybody who level one stages when there's actual, especially life-saving work to be done. If we have an imminent rescue, yes, you're announcing as you're uh coming into the scene that you are level one, but you're getting those assignments right away. And I think there's some misinformation out there that like companies are sitting in level one staging when there's a lot of tasks to be done, and that's you get you get into a battle rhythm, really, with your communications. And once you work on this, it is so smooth, and you're getting those orders out, then everybody on the fire ground understands exactly where those other companies are going and what their task location and objectives are because you you've practiced it, you've been able to quickly communicate it, and then we're not duplicating one another's work. And then we also have good accountability on on where they are on the fire ground. Any other comments about that or or how how we can improve prior to the incident?

SPEAKER_00 38:00

I think, like T said, getting getting around the table, talking about it, doing those sets and reps, setting that expectation, taking the time to train to them, and then monitoring per progress and and performance and and doing that over and over and over. I think is the way to improve.

Tactical Decision Games And Sim Drills

SPEAKER_02 38:16

And and as far as that monitoring goes, like in in the breakout session, we talk about hey, let's let's monitor a couple of the great ways to like monitor that and uh is a hot wash, right? So we get we have a hot wash sheet in our on our chiefs cars that have the questions already lined up, so you don't have to kind of think what the next question is. And you know what? On the flip side of that is all the critical fireground factors. So if you want to have a discussion about hey, the first company officer, what'd you see? What'd you have? And then you can kind of match it to that to that list. And I'll tell you, when you have a brand new company officer, and Eric, I don't know how it works in your system. I mean, we both are kind of you know departments that have a big deployment uh model, but our new company officers very often will go out to the slower companies, and they don't often get to have that fire, like first due, second due kind of fire response. So when you have these new company officers and they come in and they maybe they're fourth due, maybe they're on the second alarm, but they're going and doing the hot wash after that fire. For that new company officer just to sit and listen to that first due company officer, the second due engine, the first due ladder talk about what they saw, what they were thinking, why they made the decisions they made. That might be the best training that guy gets that week. You you might not be able to replicate that anywhere else. So, like the hot wash is one thing we used to monitor. Listening to radio traffic is is uh is another thing that we can monitor and see hey, hey, is this stuff we're teaching them? I mean, it's not the whole picture because stuff happens behind the scenes you don't hear over the radio, but uh it's another great way to monitor people. And then Eric can talk about the blue card AAR system, which we haven't got the wheels rolling on that yet, but that's something I'm looking forward to.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Yeah, I think when we talk about that, you know, the third of the four steps that uh Chief mentioned earlier, which is the set the expectation, train the extent expectation, monitor progress, and then hold somebody accountable. We're specifically talking about that third step of really based on that expectation of training. How are we doing on the fire ground? And one thing that we noticed is as soon as we started pulling audio, company officers were now asking for, like, well, how did we do? How did it sound? Did I did I do good? Did I do bad? So we we spend all this time practicing and training our folks and practicing in our office or in our bunk room. So when we get that call, we want to be prepared as company officers. The last part is how did we really do? And if you use the uh blue card after action system, you'll now be able to really gauge how that first end company officer and IC one, I see two, let's just call them that because that's what they are. Really, how do they do based on that training and expectation? And so it's a useful tool, it's uh it's just based off the radio traffic, so it takes the emotions and friendships out of it, and it really provides some value to that to those officers. And can we do better? Or did we do really well? And you're gonna start to self-identify spots that within your organization that you need to improve on, and now you can start to do some focused training with that. So if you haven't seen the after action program, I encourage you to get with your instructor, they'll be able to walk you through it. And it's this simple just start with initial radio report. Let's just do one of those, and you'll start to see how you're you know how your company officers react to it, and then they're gonna start asking for it because they're gonna want to know how they're doing, and it will just snowball from there throughout uh all of uh all of the departments and and uh and using that after action will be a benefit to to your members for sure.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

To to what degree have you had success with that with your company officers at your department, Eric? I know you you've done a lot of AARs. Have you seen improvement? Has it helped you uh with as a catalyst of that improvement? How's it work?

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Yeah, so what it's done is it's actually identified areas that maybe we didn't explain very well, or the company officers didn't have the confidence to change. So I'll just use like strategy, for example. You know, you show up and we didn't really understand that part, and then the ability to change in that follow-up report. Once you get more information, you now get the ability to change that because you have more information. So it's given us the the knowledge and ability, but really the confidence within the system to call what we see right now and then react and call something different once we identify those different critical factors at any point in the system. So it really is that that platform and that teaching tool to get people to understand the system maybe at a greater level than what you would get during a three-day class. So you think you understand until you get this, you know. We we talk about the five building types. We all understand within our own cities there are many different critical factors when you talk about building and fire and the location of it. Of how do we say that? How do we communicate that? Where do I say in the system that now we have you know fire blowing out on the Charlie side, which I didn't see on the outside? So I called it a first floor fire, but it's really on the second floor. So by having that after action program and seeing where you where it is, it really gives the people the confidence to use the system, I'll say better or maybe with more confidence, that it allows us to do everything that we need to, but in a fashion that's that's a little more reliable within utilizing the system.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

So well, we encourage everyone to uh if you haven't already, dig into the after action review because it's part of the continuous improvement process for your department and and it will help you out and it gives you a platform to do that. Gary, switching back ears again about owning it. Then what do you do to go on reinforcing with the company officers that you work with on owning the first five minutes or however long that is on the scene that they're making those critical decisions? And how do you how do you continue to uh perpetuate that within the culture of your shift?

Making Burn Buildings Realistic

SPEAKER_02 44:25

Yeah, after you know, we we're doing you know, monitoring them, whether it's recorded audio or just listening to your officers go on calls with you know with you or with in a different district or you know what have you. It yeah, the last step is is holding people accountable. And sometimes it's just as simple as just uh a friendly reminder. Other times it's I think when we we hold people accountable, it's both a positive and a negative thing, right? So we want to praise them. That's holding them accountable, that's a positive accountability of them. And you know, I would like to see myself praise somebody two to three times more than then I have to, you know, have a negative conversation with them, like, hey man, you didn't do this. You have to start, you know, you have to start doing this. Or you're you're going out, you know, you're not you're not you're not following the plan. And you know, hopefully that's it. So hopefully if it's just a I and hopefully the guy's just oh chief, I'm sorry, I forgot. I just old habits. And hopefully we can we can work through some of that stuff, but if we don't, we just circle right back to the top, remind them of the expectations we set, and then just do some more training on it. And you know, hopefully we're gonna we're gonna get the results that that we need to get.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

I think that's that part of owning it right there. Exactly what uh Chief just said. We we we maybe have an area we can improve. We start right back at the top with setting that expectation and doing the training, and we're right back to monitoring, and that gets people to own it. You know, there's nothing better than uh, you know, maybe screwing up a fire, knowing that you can do better than training on it and doing better the next time that you get it. So that's the value. That's where we really, as first and ICs, get to own that fire and make better decisions uh fire.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

And that self-ref reflection and that that want to improve yourself, that's that's owning it right there.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

And that becomes part of the culture of the organization. The culture, I think, overall from the fire chief on down needs to reinforce that that that's the only way we're going to get better is by continually improving. We talk about it in our classes a lot that there are departments out there that say, well, the fire went out, everyone went home, and then they don't really look at anything that happened there out of fear of maybe either hurting some feelings, or that maybe they don't just don't have a methodology on how they're going to critique a fire, so they don't know how to. So it's just going to be the old pat on the back, and then we go back and make the same mistakes again. And those little mistakes will add up to larger mistakes as time goes on, and and that's when you get the Swiss cheese lining up. So anything that you guys are talking about, which I love to do with that continuous improvement, makes the entire organization better because it it it grows. It it's like an amoeba that that continues to reach out to the rest of the organization.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Yeah, you'll hear Eric talk a lot about you know accidental success, which you know comes out of uh I don't if if you like to read, right? This is Challenger Launch Decision written by uh a woman named Diane Vaughn. It's more of a textbook for sociology classes, it's a tough read, but boy, it just drills down on what accidental success is. Uh and you know the other term slips my mind right now. Normalization of deviance. Normalization of deviance, yeah. I mean, it's that's big. And that's where if anybody's seen the the Mike Mulhern talk at the IAFC a number of years ago, it's on YouTube, it's a good lookup. He's a NASA astronaut, and he basically goes over the the highlights of kind of this book and and talk about it. You can directly relate that to the fire service. And and you know, hey, everybody thinks they're awesome and they're doing a great job, and and we think this is the right thing to do until it's not the right thing to do. And we realize all along, like we've been getting away with it for a while.

Shared Mental Models Across Ranks

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Well, before we go, do you guys want to hang out and do a Timeless Tactical Truth? Sure. All right. Timeless Tactical Truth from Alan Brunacini. And this comes from the Timeless Tactical Truths book, which is now available at bshifter.com once again. And this one says, on the fire ground, be particularly careful of those who close their eyes when they open their mouths. And I think what the chief's talking about on this one, on the fire ground, be particularly careful of those who close their eyes when they open their mouths, or the folks that uh get by on bravado and talk without real evaluation. Yeah, they they they either haven't been taught or they're not passing on those lessons to others, but it's it's the repeated bravado over and over. I don't know if you have any other take on on that one.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

I I would say it's um like you can't pre-plan what you're gonna say on the radio before you get there. Because even if you know like what the building is, because if you're doing that, you're not doing size up. You know, you have to have your eyes open, use all your senses and and dive down into those critical fire ground factors and use that just strategic decision-making model, size that up and move through the system. You just you just can't you can't talk the fire out, you can't make it sound like you got this thing under control. You gotta you gotta paint the picture, and it's gotta the next company that shows up, they gotta see you know what you're seeing. And uh and I I think you can't just close your eyes and and and do a and do a report by what you think is you're gonna be seeing.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

I kind of think back to that EMS example, right? Uh we don't go on an EMS call and and when we do go on an EMS call, we do a patient assessment, right? We go in there, we kind of have an outline of how we're gonna do the assessment, and then we react to what we find during that assessment. And this is the same way on the fire ground. I'd laugh, and I when people are oh blue cards a script. Well, if you think blue cards a script, you're a special kind of special. You have a script just like you do a patient assessment, and then you have to react and make decisions based on that assessment instead of a patient. You're just assessing the building, and we call those on the fire side critical factors, and then we start making decisions off there. If you want to do any other type of a system, then you might as well just sit in your office or wherever you are and call a fire because it doesn't matter what the what the patient assessment is or the building of the critical factors, you're just gonna do ABC because that's just what you do on every call. So I think there's nothing better than uh using that strategic decision-making model, having a system in place that we use as the guideline to get us through the call, and then reacting to what we find on the fire. Every fire is different, the location, the all the critical factors are different on every call. And I think that's part of what's uh being so awesome about being uh first due and owning it is taking those critical factors and making decisions based on this fire that I'm facing right now. And as I get more information, I've got to duck and dive and react to it and make up a new IAP as we go based on those critical factors. To me, that's why I want to be first due and I want to own that fire moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Fantastic conversation today, guys. I've got a uh for those of you on video, I've got a whole page of notes. I learned so much from uh Gary and Eric and being able to teach with them, and and I appreciate you sharing that today with everyone, guys. Thanks for having us, Nancy. All right, yeah. Thank you. Thanks everyone for listening for the Beach W podcast. We'll talk to you again next week.