B Shifter
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B Shifter
Assigning a Division Boss
This episode features Josh Blum, Chris Stewart and John Vance.
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We sit down at the Blue Card Hazard Zone Conference to discuss how division bosses actually make the fireground safer and calmer. We draw a hard line between tactical and strategic roles, explain NFPA 1700 updates, and show how to fix oversaturated divisions before they fail.
• purpose of a division boss in type 4/5 incidents
• triggers for standing up a division boss
• NFPA 1700 size‑up and search insights
• difference between tactical and strategic roles
• why “Operations” isn’t a house‑fire shortcut
• span of control limits and real thresholds
• pairing a division boss with a support officer
• TLO assignments that reduce radio noise
• managing Mayday and victim removals
• splitting floors and sides to prevent overload
• training company officers to think, not just do
• calm, professional radio traffic and decision models
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Welcome to the Bee Shifter Podcast. John Vance, Josh Bloom, and Chris Stewart. We are coming at you from the Sharonville Convention Center in Sharonville, Ohio, right outside of Cincinnati. We're here this week for the Blue Cart Hazard Zone Conference. We have uh probably well over 400 all involved uh in this this week. Uh incident commanders, fire department leaders, people aspiring toward those roles. So we are um kind of gearing up for it. We're we're here getting ready, and we thought it would be a good time to sit down and get our podcast on.
SPEAKER_00:How are you guys doing? I'm doing fantastic. I'm glad the week's here. Looking forward to hanging out with everybody. Got a bunch of full classes, cert lab today, a bunch of workshops starting tomorrow. Chris and Eric are doing the critical thinking class. We got a Mayday management class with Chief Lester and Chief Fleischer and expanded command. Kind of a not it's not new. Well, it is a new new really, it's uh all of the same tools, parts and pieces, but it's uh repackaged expanded command class. Tim Schauel, Kevin Alexander from Houston are doing that. Really, like how do you make that trans transition as the incident escalates without uh without overdoing it or overcomplicating it, just using the same system we really use for everything else, just adding a few layers to it. So looking forward to that, and then the general session Thursday and Friday with Dan from FSRI. We're looking forward to that, especially with the summit wrapping up last week and some of the stuff hopefully he talks about this week with that. Captain Sorillo, now tired retired Captain Sorillo.
SPEAKER_01:He does have a retirement beard.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, from uh FDNY talking about what he does so well with the wind-driven fires and so on. He's gonna spend a little time with us, but he's got to get out of here to get back to the New York high-rise conference. I think starts Thursday or Friday. So, but he still was able to make it join us. Yeah, so all good. Good. It's all coming together. And what are you doing here, Chris?
SPEAKER_02:What what what are your classes this week?
SPEAKER_01:First and foremost, I'm here to feel the buzz.
SPEAKER_02:Well, there is a buzz.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there is a buzz, certainly moving around the convention center here at uh Sharonville. Yeah, Josh said Eric and I are teaching the strategic decision-making critical thinking workshop the next two days, Tuesday and Wednesday. And then my breakout session is on practical application of NFPA 1700 with the new new seven NFPA 1700 coming out in uh January and the guide to structural firefighting. It really is the NFPA's only structural firefighting standard that you know we're gonna we're gonna talk about the application of that and how it all connects and where it all comes from and and really what the what the new and improved information in it is.
SPEAKER_02:What what uh if you can give us a sneak peek, what do you think uh a few of the highlights that we might hear this week?
SPEAKER_01:So I think two two things I'll focus on. Number one is the strategic considerations chapter, chapter nine of uh 1700 is really about size up, risk management, strategy, and incident action planning. I don't know where that all that stuff came from, but that's what we you know it's is really in the in that uh document. And then chapter 13 is actually an all-new chapter, and that is uh tactical considerations for search and rescue. And that is essentially based on all the data that came out of FSRI's uh size up and search study and the practical application of that. And a critical part of that is size up and size up with regards and perspective of life safety. And what does that look like from an exterior size up? Well, how do you how do you connect all that doing a 360? And then lastly, that you know, that interior size up component, what does that actually look like? And and then the the you know, the the task level, you know, what does the work look like, whether it's a door-initiated search or a or a window initiated search? It really is all the same considerations. And you know, we just need to be smart about that. So whether we're we're doing the work or the incident commander, we we we need to have a clue about what that is, what we're asking them to do, and what the outcomes and the expected outcomes should be of that stuff. So yeah, we'll spend a little bit of time wrestling with that uh as much as we can in an hour and 15 minutes, which is uh you know, plenty of time to have a decent conversation. So it looks like there was much to my surprise, you know, quite a few people signed up for for that. So I'm looking forward to to talking with them.
SPEAKER_02:I'm looking forward to popping into your classes this week. Uh that's gonna be great. So if you're hearing this on Thursday, uh things are well underway, you can make it here maybe for a half half day or a half day Thursday and a full day, but we we still do have seats if you happen to hear this and you're in the neighborhood. We'd welcome you to to come by. Today, let's get into our topic. We we want to talk about assigning a division boss. And sometimes we hear radio traffic where the division boss is just saturated with resources and or tasks or both. But let's talk about the criteria first, assigning a division boss, what that sounds like, why you do it, when you do it. What are what are the let's start with the trigger for assigning a division boss at an incident.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so John, before I jump to that, the we we see a lot of they're calling it something different, but really it's the old operations position. Like somebody ends up in front of the building on the alpha side and they call it operations, and but now they're calling it, you know, alpha, or you know, some recent things that we got from some folks was how does a division boss manage 11 companies? And it's like they don't. We have a span of control, you know, for a reason. So that kind of leads into this. That there's decision goes, there's some a bunch of decisions and parts and pieces go into assigning a division. One, it really starts with the back to the critical factors thing of what is going on, how much work needs to take place, and how much resources are gonna be in that position. And then location of it. Uh location of the work is always a factor, right? Like how far away is the work taking place, how long are we gonna work in that space, you know, is another, you know, uh potential piece for assigning the division. I always tell people, you know, command function one is deployment and assigning a division boss, regardless of you know, their rank, if they're gonna operate in that warm zone as a true division boss with a support officer and manage that position and the work that's happening there, we need to understand their capabilities and limitations, no different than if you've got an engine company with two on it, or an engine company with three on it, or an engine company with four on it. You can only assign them to do the work that they're really capable of doing. So just because a chief has arrived doesn't mean that they're probably potentially the best person to throw into that position. So it comes back to that. The deployment piece is really important. And that whole deployment piece starts off with what do you have and what can you do with what you have? And the the the chief officer assignment, that division officer assignment is is no different at all. Chris, a little bit on the the 1550 stuff that's written now with expanding command is really what it comes down to, but they kind of focus on a little bit on the division ops, the three or more companies assigned to any geographic space for any period of time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think they're they're really defining some critical benchmarks or triggers of actual effective supervision, right? So if in if you have more than three companies working in a in a in any given tactical position, the consideration for a supervisor to best support the work and the safety aspects of what they have going on in that tactical position, then the the need to assign a division boss becomes fairly apparent. And or it it can or should become fairly apparent. And that division boss should be helped by having a support officer of some kind, and we can put whatever label we want on that, and and it can be done multiple different ways, but it it's a supervisory piece, right? And so the backup to the original question is when should we assign a division? Well, let's let's take a step back even from that. When should the first arriving chief officer take command? The first arriving chief officer should take command when they can make the incident command system better, when they can make the incident more effective, when they can make the incident uh more safe, right, for the firefighters doing the work. So now you're dealing with what's best for the customer and what's best for the firefighters. The same should be true for an IC and assigning a division boss whenever I have where I'm getting enough complication on the fire ground where putting a division in is actually going to make the incident organization and the work that's happening on the incident more effective and safer, then I should assign a division boss when I have one available to me and put them in that role with a clear delineation of responsibility for the division boss and then the safety element that you know really should be done by a support officer. But a lot of in a lot of systems, the chief's responsible for that until they get paired up with a support officer, you know, depending on how they do that in their in their system. So that ties directly to the standard, right? The standard is built on best supporting the work that's actually happening on the fire ground so that we can account for the people doing the work. We can rotate them in and out of the hazard zone while doing the work. And that tends to make us way more effective at actually doing the work. And the work is the same work that we've defined everywhere, all clear, under control, law stopped, right? Those are the objectives of the work we're doing from any given position. And so that division boss becomes really, really important to actually manage that. The other part of that is the safety element that goes along with that division boss and who, how does that safety best get managed is when it is independent from the tactical level boss part of the job, it becomes ineffective, it becomes competitive, it becomes all the you know, these problems that we can, I'm sure we can talk about at a later point here. But it it it the standard connects directly to the work and and what effective supervision in that tactical position should look like.
SPEAKER_02:And that that's the correlation between operations and this division boss. Why don't we do operations in blue card? Let's explain that, you know, in type them four and five incidents. Why aren't we using an operations boss?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so our our entire system is designed around you know, type four and five incidents that in generally we solve, you know, very quickly. And we assign resources to positions quickly to solve problems. And when we talk about operations on large-scale incidents, that position doesn't get set up for you know a long a pretty pretty extended period of time. Like it's it's not the 15-minute work cycle, you know, piece. And you know growing up, my first 20 years in the fire service before Blue Card, operations happened all the time. And really it was on the house fire, they would call it operations, but really the person was alpha. They weren't filling out all those job roles and responsibilities, they just called them operations, and really they weren't operations because there was work happening in other geographic areas, they just didn't call them you know alpha as as that division boss, and they really didn't have a job description, and you know, far too often it was race basically a passing of command. You know, I grew up in a system where the Chiefs have been sitting in cars for my entire career as a strategic IC, which is fantastic, but then they'd make operations that was standing in the front yard sometimes with a cigarette in their mouth and a radio in their back pocket halfway in the front door, you know, talking to you with their eyes watered and saying, How's it going? And it's like that that was that operations thing, but everybody was talking to that person and they really weren't managing anything, right? It was it was a glorified company officer position, quite frankly. And I think we need to go back to that to the assignment piece is just like just like assigning a company, we assign a division boss who's arriving with maybe their driver or not the same way. They get a task location and objective. And that that transfer, we can talk about that more. That that goes a little bit different when we're assigning those people the resources and how do we get to that point in the accountability part of it, but the that that it really comes back to that work cycle. We're trying to get somebody there to make a difference because we have three or more companies in a geographic area that's doing a significant amount of work, and probably companies working in other areas so that we can better manage the span of control component. And when we assign operations, that's just another error coming down from command, and they still got all these resources. So you're not helping your span of control one bit.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think you and I came up in the in the very same time period in similar systems. Yours was a little bigger than the one I came up in, but it always felt to me like operations was freelance command. I mean, it just it was somebody who was usually the hot dog officer who was running around the building and oftentimes usurping what the other orders were. I mean, that that's that's what it felt like to me, and and it and it and it really doesn't seem very well organized. So when when we do put, say, an alpha division or another division boss in place, we were talking about not over-assigning. So, you know, we start off with task location objective. What what does that sound like with the TLO that you're going to give a division boss? And really what should that TLO encompass?
SPEAKER_00:Well, we can kind of we can we can kind of Chris and I can kind of play that out of what a division boss assigned arriving and being assigned, you know, sounds like. But everybody being on the same tactical frequency, the division boss responding into the incident. We did a we released a couple CEs earlier in the year that we talked about this of assigning a division boss and where do they go. Again, they're no different than any other company. They're responding into this incident. They probably have a pretty good idea of where the work's taking place. They probably have a pretty good idea of what it sounded like on arrival. They know where companies have been assigned. They probably can judge progress of the incident. They can get there and see, even from a distance, kind of what's going on, so that they're in the best place to make you know some decisions. They don't self-assign, but they're listening to all this and gathering information so that if they do get assigned, that that they know what's going on, right? So it it helps with the it helps with everybody just being on the same page when everybody's using the same system, right? And assigning using task location objective comes back to the same system. Everybody evaluating critical fire ground comes back to the the same, you know, system piece. They heard all the assignments, so it's like that's where the most work is taking place. There was priority traffic from this location. There's not a division in that place. They got two lines in operation. You know, it's it's it's pretty easy when you have a system to figure out where you're likely going to be assigned when you're coming in, if you're gonna be assigned as a division boss on an incident.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I think this whole operation thing comes from the lack of understanding about NIMS, right? Everybody wants to point to a well, we're doing NIMS. No, you're not. You are not doing NIMS for type four and type five incidents because it doesn't exist. It was not ever designed for that. So they took this type three, type two, type one incident uh management position, which is operations, and they're plugging it into hazard zone management, and it doesn't work effectively because one of two things happens is the IC, if you're assigning operations, you're essentially handing the entire incident and all the resources and accountability and work uh objectives that come with it. And you're and and and you now as the IC are really no longer responsible for anything because there's very little for you to actually communicate or do. And then uh so they either have everything and they just they gave they passed the strategic level responsibilities of the incident to off to somebody who's in a less effective position to be able to do it, or they put them into a position in operations much like JV was describing, where I am responsible for the incident action plan, but I don't have to do any of the other nonsense. I'm not sizing anything up, I'm not applying risk. We are just it, we are I'm gonna manage the the crews to get it on. And that's an equally ineffective position, right? So it gets confused there. And if you are in a tactical position, your job is to manage the tactical level responsibilities of companies doing work in the hazard zone. If you're in a strategic level position, your job is to manage the strategic position and incident action plan for everyone on the fire ground. And you can't do that from a tactical position, a tactical level position. And so that's the that confusion. That's that's where I think it's been created from and perpetuated, and and it's well, this is just the way we've done it. Well, it it's not working. It's not working as effectively, I think, as you would like. And if you continue to do it that way, that you're you're there will be gaps in your ability to actually manage the fire ground.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I think just to take what Chris was saying one step further with going the other direction with the strategic level and tactical level, just so to clarify for everybody, the the tactical level boss works in the warm zone, sometimes in the cold zone, even, but they do not work in the hot zone inside of the IDLH. And we hear that a lot too, right? That a lot of organizations that are we do ICS, and I don't know what that means either, because there's no system to train you on ICS, but they I'm gonna I'm gonna you're Chief 301, I'm making you in charge of search operations on the second floor. And it's like now you got a chief in there inside the building with companies, and they're they're working with company officers. And to me, that just sends the message of you don't trust your company officers to make decisions inside the building. Or, and maybe both, you don't trust yourself to let them work because maybe you're not comfortable in the position that you're in. So, you know, that we're talking about division operations. Well, division operations, it's it's it's it there's a there's a lot of latitude there, but it's inside of this box. You're in the warm zone, you're not in the hot zone. It doesn't mean you can't peek your head in there, it doesn't mean you can't take a uh catch up what's going on for a minute, whatever, but you don't continue to work in that area because then you're no you can't do your job inside of the IDLH. You're no better than no better than they are. And we hear that a lot. Like 301's now division one. And the next thing you know, they're on a mask inside of a building, given all these reports, and they all want to talk about the radio and all this talking on the radio. And every time I hear that, there's there is no more talking on the radio than that, because they don't I don't know if they need to hear themselves talk or what, but it's 301, I got truck seven, engine 11, and engine nine, we're making good progress. We're this, that, and that it's like nobody cares, dude. Like you, and you shouldn't be in there anyway. If the companies had something to say, they would say something, right? But all of that comes back to there's no system and there's no training that that goes with it. So it's just what we've always done. And then they then they hang their hat back on it. It's just ICS, and it's like, well, okay, what well, what is that?
SPEAKER_02:I don't I don't understand what what is what what I mean is is there an answer to what is ICS?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's one of two things. It's either fire ground command, writ you know, that was written in 1985 from Alan Bernassini, or it's what became NIMS. And NIMS has nothing to do with the hazard zone. And and whether it's one-eyed NIMS, two-eyed NIMS, fire scope, any of that other stuff, it did not deal with that. It was how they dealt with large-scale, complex, multi-operational period incidents. It wasn't work-rest cycles, it wasn't accountability, it it it was not how do I develop an incident action plan at the tactical level for me and the crews that we're working on. If you're trying to do that from a position inside the hazard zone, your ability to do accountability, your ability to develop an incident action plan in an environment where you can't see what anybody has going on or what the bigger picture actually is, it doesn't work. It absolutely doesn't work. So I think the that ICS thing, it's it's become a, you know, uh, well, there's a there's a there's a term we use in our strategic decision making class, the uh the illusion of explanatory depth. We tend to think we know more about things than we actually do. And then when you stop and you look back and really investigate and define what it actually is, we figure out is you know, holy shit, I really had no clue what this actually was. And uh and when so when you have that illusion, it tends to form really, really strong bias, biased perspectives on how we do it. And those biases can be really extreme. And so that we're uh there's no doubt in my mind that there's a lot of this illusion going on with what incident command is, because I've just heard these terms, so I just start throwing them around. I have no clue what they actually mean until you actually start talking to people who really know what incident command actually looks like, what NIMS actually looks like, it matters, by the way, and what hazard zone management incident command and for for type four, type five incidents really looks like.
SPEAKER_02:And this is a much simple, simpler version than any of those. It's not it's not a two-week class to learn it. We're not filling out forms other than if you're IC number two and you're you're tracking companies on your tactical worksheet. But everything else is really on the fly, 10, 15-minute work periods and and much different. And uh, you know, I shame on me for ever reading comments on social media. We've talked about that before, but I I saw one this week. It's like, why do we need blue card? We already have NIMS. And I didn't answer the person, but it was like because NIMS isn't intended for the kind of work that we do every day. It really isn't. I mean, it's what it's that escalating incident.
SPEAKER_01:That's a tantamount to writing on the internet. I have no idea what I'm talking about, and I'm gonna prove it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. So wait, I just don't answer that. Yeah. So let's get back to the really the advantages of putting, and then we'll get to the limitations. Let's talk advantage of having a division boss and why we do it, and then what some of those limitations are. So let's start with the advantage.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I mean the advantages are it helps us with the whole span of control thing. And span of control was really individualized. I mean, even if everybody's on the same system has the same training, you know, not everybody has the same experience. So what Chris feels comfortable as his span of control might be different than mine, right? So we've all heard this three to five, five to seven, and it's like, well, that's different at almost every fire, too, because like how much risk are we taking in the division? Who's in the and risk has to line back up to what work are we doing there? What is the exposure, and then who is going to do the work, right? So I mean there's there's a whole lot of parts and pieces that go into it, but the advantage is an advantage of that is is a strategic IC, you get somebody that's a little bit closer to it, and I don't mean this literally, but it's what we what we say, you know, that can kind of feel it, taste it, touch it. They're not inside of it, but they're just a little bit closer to manage the work in that geographic area. And it lets the strategic IC then do their job because everybody has a job list of things they need to do. Well, it's really hard, it's really hard to do my job, your job, and his job, right? So as the incident escalates, you know, we just grow the system. So the the advantage is we can do work more effectively and efficiently when we assign a division boss when the work is there to take place, at lest the strategic IC do their job, at lest the task level people be a little bit more comfortable that somebody's there managing the bench, if you will, in that geographic area, that there's resource right there. It definitely helps us, should somebody say Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, and we have an incident, that I have somebody in that geographic area, if the Mayday happened there, that they can manage that and the strategic ISC can continue to do, continue to do their job. So I mean there's there's we could talk about this for two days probably, of the advantages of almost like we could do a workshop on it. Yeah. Yeah, we got a two-day workshop. Yeah, the whole division office, two days, yeah. And then when you when you add that layer of support officer, right? The what Chris already said, air management, accountability, making sure our on that companies are actually engaged. Managing everything that happens in that geographic area. The a division boss goes through all eight functions of command and uses a strategic decision-making model in the same way that the strategic IC does. They're just doing it in their geographic area while paying attention to what strategy the IC has declared for the incident and following the IC's bigger incident action plan.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But really, when you boil it down, that's a hundred percent it. And and uh we should probably, you know, just in general, always be working to simplify it rather than complicate it. I think that the the advantages of having a division boss in place. Well, let me say this. I I can honestly and truly say that well over 95% of the of the residential single family, two-family homes that fires that I ran in my entire career as a fire, as a firefighter, as a captain, and as a as a chief officer, we did not put any division bosses or sector bosses in the Phoenix system into place. We we just didn't. Looking back on it, I we probably should have done it more in time in those times that that required it. So a lot of times I see focus from blue card, especially newer blue card agencies, of trying to utilize it as much as they can, and that's great, and trying to utilize it on single-family homes and utilize it in less complicated incidents. And it can work, but it doesn't, it isn't always necessary when we've put it in. But I'm gonna come back to that. Where I see division bosses as the absolute dire strength of division bosses in places where there are multiple tactical positions, where we're entering a building or entering the hazard zone from two or three different spots. We're trying to coordinate work happening either inside the hazard zone or even on a defensive fire where we have very clear geographical positions that we're trying to protect exposures from those positions. That's where it becomes effective, super effective because you have you can have six, seven, eight, I've had as many 12 companies assigned to be in a division on a defensive fire. And that is a way different environment than people being in the hazard zone. So then the IC now only has to talk to two or three divisions, and you can manage a huge amount of resources and actually working inside those divisions. When we start talking about offensive fires, it's when when I want to put tactical bosses and division bosses in place when I'm actually really worried about firefighters getting lost in the in the hazard zone, of us not being able to uh put put the fire out and being able to say that as quickly as possible. And a lot of times a tactical division boss supporting crews working on the inside is a way more effective to make decisions about whether we should continue in an offensive strategy or we need to go to a defensive strategy and having them in there early. The last part of this, I'll say in the strength, is when you have the two most important trans or critical transmissions that you can have on the fire ground. Uh, priority traffic, we have victims, and mayday, mayday, made a is having a division boss in place and either one of those, and I'll look talk about them separately. So when you have Victims. Now you have somebody on the outside that can coordinate. All right, victims are coming out. Who else is going to continue the work if we haven't completed the searches yet? Because if we find one, it's likely that we find more. And then how are we going to take care of those victims on the outside with treatment, transportation, and all that? And then how do I get people back to work that are actually ready to go back to work? They're not going back in with a half a bottle. They're not, you know, putting themselves in a bad position because they're amped up because they want to keep searching. So a tactical level boss there. And then on Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, that tactical level boss, that division boss becomes a linchpin of managing that Mayday and managing the effectiveness of the response to the Mayday, both inside the hazard zone and outside the hazard zone. What additional resources do we need there? And how do I best control the people going into the hazard zone from outside of the hazard zone? So I have the best accountability and the best possibility of impacting and a legitimate removal of a downed firefighter inside there and minimize the amount of extracurricular May Days that we're going to have because of our operations. So that division of the strengths line up there, and we have real-world experience talking about uh the successes and failures because this system was built on the failures at big incidents like Southwest Supermarket, and that's why we know it works. And now we have the laundry list of successful incidents where we employed that position. So yeah, that's that's where I see the strengths of this.
SPEAKER_02:And we know of incidents where that division boss becomes a gatekeeper and stops people from going in to a situation that we've already lost firefighters, and it's been documented that those division bosses have saved lives of firefighters by keeping them from, you know, at the time it seemed like, well, they're stopping the rescue. Well, there was nobody to rescue, and the building was gone. But but in the heat of the moment and the emotions running high, people will still get into those situations. I I don't like the term designated adult, although we use that with with the division boss. What what does that mean to us when we say designated adult, especially in those circumstances where they're they're stopping people from going in or they're they're making sure they actually have a TLO before they pass the threshold?
SPEAKER_00:It's it's that it's the process, it's that thinking process, is what it is. So I want I want every firetruck to pull up with a bunch of firemen that are thinking that want to do work and want to do as much work as they can possibly do. With that said, their focus is on the work, which is good. But they don't always see firemen and company officers at the task level. We don't we don't always train them, I don't think, to make decisions, which is why the critical thinking class is is so powerful. Because people leave that. I've seen 30-year people that work at very large, very busy fire departments leave that and they're like, I'm gonna this this changed my mindset at the next fire. I'm not just gonna run through the front door like I always have. We we have to have somebody in place that isn't gonna be as emotionally connected to it and is gonna make decisions based off of some kind of a process, and that they have a job to do in that place. And you know, designated adult is just that, you know, it's that term that just floated out there as the person that's responsible for that geographic area, and that hopefully that they're hopefully that they're using a system and trained and educated and have the experience to to do the job, and they're going through a process, not just the that didn't work, we're just gonna do it harder. Task level mentality that we all have probably lived through at some point or another. This isn't working, we're gonna reinforce it again. Oh, it still didn't work, and we're gonna reinforce it again. And it's like, no, somebody has to be there to say, no, it's over. Like we're we're not gonna do this anymore. But while we're talking about that, I'm gonna put it out there of a of a benefit of a division boss. And we have audio of this one from a podcast in in Georgia where the strategic IC said, we're gonna three-story apartment building, burning on two floors. It was still pretty early on in an incident. They did not have all clears. The strategic IC wasn't feeling good about conditions they were seeing and some of the reports, but there was a division boss in place, and the division boss had the information and said, if you'll just give me, just give me a couple minutes. I have companies in place on the second floor. I just want to get an all-clear of that. That's the last place. And the strategic IC accepted that because they're in the same plane, they were on the same plan, same system, you know, whatever. It wasn't it wasn't Joe Fireman inside who didn't know exactly what was going on that said, give me a couple more minutes. It was another layer, layer of leadership on the fire ground that was doing their job, had been trained to do the job. They were on the same page. The strategic IC knows who the division boss is, he knows that what their capability is, but made it very clear as soon as you get those all clears, we're changing strategies. Well, we we heard that same type of audio. We hear that audio quite a bit, but we heard that same type of audio from 25 years ago from a Phoenix fire, where they said, you know, we're gonna change strategies. But it was we're gonna change strategies as soon as you get an all clear. And just kind of put that out there, just letting everybody know that two division bosses were assigned. As soon as we get all clears of apartment three and apartment four, we're going defensive. Well, the division bosses were managing those companies in those locations a little bit closer. So the strategic IC felt okay with letting that work continue to happen, and that when they said we're going defensive, that those companies were going to come out and that the division bosses were gonna do their job to make sure that the companies came out. So that was that was just a benefit of having the division. Two different things, I think, on the benefit of the division boss there, and a little piece on you know the designated adult.
SPEAKER_02:So, what are the limitations of having that division boss? And as the IC, what do we need to be aware of in our role so we don't oversaturate the division boss either with tasks or units or or anything else, or or even you know, overbuilding the objectives on an incident? How how do we balance that out?
SPEAKER_00:Well, what what Chris said before, the we have to know you have to know your capabilities and limitations, clearly, and that we shouldn't assign a division boss if it's not going to make it better. And if we assign a division boss, but then we overload them, it is not making it better either.
SPEAKER_01:Or we put them in a disadvantageous position. He don't want you to manage everybody from the front front yard in alpha. No, that's a less that's a disadvantageous position compared to having maybe multiple divisions or just the IC running it from uh with a better perspective.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. The so we we've had a few, you know, correspondence via email about division boss tools, right? And you know, we have we have a model with passports and tags and a division board that we teach, but that's not the only system, right? I mean, you you can use other whatever you use is what you use. And one of those correspondence was about the this the this board that Blue Cart has isn't big enough for me to be the division boss and manage these companies. And it's like, well, we we put some thought into that and had it out in the field and had hundreds of them out at pretty busy fire departments before we put that out. And it kept on coming back to this board of the board's not big enough. And I finally said, How how many people were you talking about? And they're like, Well, I was they made me outfit a three-story apartment building, and I had 11 companies assigned. And I was like, Well, it ain't got nothing to do with the board. It has nothing to do, I don't care how big the board is. Your brain, the biggest tool you have available to use in the division is your brain. And your brain, I don't care what tool you got, cannot manage 11 companies inside of the IDLH, which is different than what Chris was talking about. Chris is managing Delta at a defensive fire with ladder pipes and ground monitors, just making sure that we don't burn down another city block. Well, that's way different than they're crossing the threshold operating on three different floors at an apartment building. And so that that was that's an incident commander's problem, right? The incident commander inappropriately assigned a division as alpha, but then gave them every basically they assigned operations, right? And it's like, well, no, you could have designed you could have assigned division three. You could have assigned them division two and three. You could have made them alpha and said, you're only responsible for the first floor. If that was the case, I would just make them division. You're in charge of the first floor, you're division one. But understanding that capability and limitations is is a big deal, right? So we talked about three or more companies operating in that geographic area. So really, if you have more than you shouldn't have more than five companies operating across the threshold as a division boss and still and be in a position of managing that. You're you're gonna you're you're gonna get out of balance. Even with a support officer, you're gonna get out of balance in that position because what you still have that the support officer is managing is in that case, if you had five companies inside of a building, you probably got two or three behind you on deck, which they're not as they're not a they're not in any hazard, but they still have to be managed, right? Your support officer's talking to them, hey, these guys are getting ready to come out, we're gonna have to rotate you around, all you guys got to go to rehab, that whole, that whole process, right? So when we look at all of the job description for a division boss support officer, I think it's 14 different, 15 different things, I think that's that's in the list when you put the two together, it it becomes a lot. So if you take that list of 15 things and then think that you're gonna manage more than five companies inside of a hazard zone, it it's just not gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01:So if you put somebody in a tactical position and give them the responsibility of managing the accountability, work objectives, and and the incident overall and the incident action plan for all of those companies, you've just made a strategic level boss. You have not you have not made a tactical level boss that has a piece or a portion or a or a percentage of the incident. And so, and you've made them a tactical level boss in a less effective position, right? So that doesn't make sense. So if you make them that, so a disadvantage would be to ineffectively utilizing and assigning the position with unreal expectations and and and then following through on it, well, it didn't, nothing bad happened this time, so it must be okay. So we're just gonna keep doing it. And that's not that's not reality. I would say that one of the other disadvantages to the system is and it's not a disadvantage of the system necessarily, but it can be a huge disadvantage in the training, is if you don't trust the people that you're putting in key positions to actually give you in good information and be able to act on that information, then you might as well not have a system, right? Because you your system can't outperform the people doing the work. And so you need to raise the bar on the people that are actually going into those positions. And if you if you run over them or you ignore them every time you put them in the position, then you you have a disadvantageous uh process going on there that you that you have to fix in other ways. You're not fixing it on the fire ground.
SPEAKER_00:I always have to wrap sports into this, right? You can have the best quarterback out there in the world, but if the rest of the team around them sucks, they're gonna suck. And you can have the best team on the field and they're gonna make some shit happen. But if your coaching staff sucks, you're gonna suck, right? And vice versa. You can have the best coaching staff in the world, and if the players suck, they suck, right? Yeah, so you know, a piece of that is what our duty is as bosses, as chiefs, instructors, officers, is to make sure that they can do their job, right? That we can't complain about them and throw them under the bus. And we hear this all the time. Chris and I have done a few classes this year and then talk randomness to other people, and well, one of it was we just don't. I I gotta be right there. I don't trust my company officers. And it's like, well, why not? And it really all circles back to a a training issue of not getting them up to the point where you really need them to be. Well, you Chris said it, you still can't outperform that. When they cross that threshold, they're gonna make they're gonna be making decisions inside. You're not there to help them. So you you have to train them to do the job, and everybody has to be in the system.
SPEAKER_01:So you have to know and understand what to train them on, right?
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, you have to have, yeah, you have to have you have to have a standard document to have a train any kind of training system, right? I mean, that's the and and training has to be if they're I mean, if they're a company officer, they have to be trained on decision making, not just glorified firemen. They're there because they were the best guy that can stretch a hand line and search or get dressed or force a door or whatever. It's like no, like they they promoted out of that spot. They're there to be the boss. And yet a lot of organizations with staffing they have to help, but they're there to make decisions. And if they're if if we're missing that piece and we don't trust the people who are arriving there to provide service to the community, then it is on the organization to make sure that we do whatever we need to do to train them to get them up to speed and caught up. And Chris and I have this conversation quite a bit. I think it already came up today. Is it you don't trust the the people that are in those positions, or is it that you aren't comfortable and you don't trust yourself? And that's you have to look in the mirror, right? Like I don't feel comfortable with this. Well, why don't you feel comfortable with it? Is it them or is it you? And all of it is a potentially a training component piece, right? Like you don't have to do the work harder. Maybe you should train harder and put more time and commitment into that, right? It's that it's that 10,000 hours, if you will, in the position to be a true professional.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, training of the brain. This isn't this isn't forcing a door. This isn't uh a single person 24-foot ladder raise. This isn't, you know, all the unique things that we see going on right now at the task level training. And I'm not and I'm not belittling them at all. They actually can make it. We have to have it. Yeah, 100%. But I actually have to train people to think as much as I train people to actually do skills. And if we're not thinking like ICs, thinking like division boss, thinking like support officers, thinking at strategic tactical tasks, then we are not going to be effective at managing any of that. That's just the way it's gonna be.
SPEAKER_02:Guys, have any other thoughts on division bosses before we wrap up that conversation? I think I, you know, that this is the second podcast that we've done on it. And and I I know the reason why we came back and talked about it today is because exactly what Josh was saying is we're we're hearing of these incidents where they are putting way too many resources into that division boss and really overloading it. So you you started to get into it, Josh. And I think just let's let's circle back and reiterate. If you're a senior advisor, you're getting into the command post and and you hear this going on, what is going to be your advice to that IC to start to pare that down so there aren't so many resources within one division. And you and you started talking about splitting up floors or whatever, but how how do we do that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, just because of an just because of an incident started with you were I had a division in one place doesn't mean I can't keep adding layers and put divisions in other places. So, I mean, if if we were talking about a big box and I've started to make my fire attack on Alpha at uh Sam's Club, and I realize this ain't gonna work. I'm more than 170 feet inside the front door, I'm gonna have to reassign a new position and go from the Charlie side. Well, then I'm just gonna end up with Alpha and Charlie. But it that's alpha's not gonna run the whole thing, right? We're gonna divide it up. We assign companies based off of critical factors. A critical factor in that case was I couldn't reach the seat of the fire, we're going to a new position. We don't just go there just because we started with this, we're gonna reinforce that, and if it then then we'll figure that out. We'll just say uh we're at a we're at the Drury Inn, you know, two blocks away from here, eight-story hotel. And I started out and I'm on the fifth floor, and I assign a division boss to be in charge of the fifth floor. Well, if I end up with a bunch of companies on six and seven because it was a running vertical fire in a stack or whatever, I might end up with division six and seven or or or whatever, right? If the pit I assign the division based off of how much work is taking place there, is it gonna make it better, and how many companies are working in that geographic area to solve the problem. I'm at uh a three-story apartment building. I'm not calling it alpha. I'm gonna assign it to a it's gonna be a floor. I'm gonna make your the fire's on the second floor, I'm making you division two. That's where the most work's gonna take place. In our three-story apartment building, when the fire gets into the attic, we end up assigning division three. Fire start on the first floor, runs to the second, and to the third, exterior fire gets into the attic, typical thing. We see it every day all across the country. Well, I assign division three there. Well, if we realize that the fire's running on division two and I'm gonna have a bunch of companies there, then maybe I'll end up with a division boss there too. So, like, is the senior advisor role or the support officer and and and getting in the car with somebody, wherever somebody, everybody should be making decisions, right? So I I never have had a problem in my career saying something like, Did we think about this? Should we think about this? Do we know that we got alpha in place and they have 11 companies right now? And clearly that we they can't manage it. Like it's not good for the system, it's not good for them. Like we're making it worse. What can we break this up and make division three's got four companies? Well, we're gonna assign another chief and make it division three. Alpha, you're responsible for the first and second floor car 301, you're gonna be division three. Let me know when you're in place. I'll give you a rundown of your companies. Everybody's got to be on the same page. We got to communicate that. Ideally, we wouldn't put ourselves in that position from the get-go of making alpha where they're gonna be in charge of three floors like that. But I mean, it can happen, right? But I think you can have a discussion to not end up in that position by just not making alpha at a three or four-story apartment building where you're gonna be operating on multiple floors. And we hear that, you know, all over the place from different organizations. And I was throw out a couple of other ones. So the Lincoln, Nebraska that we we did uh we did a podcast on. So they end up with uh strategic IC and two, in the end, actually, three division bosses. And the division bosses were responsible for different buildings. So it started out in one building, defensive, spread to another building, ends up going defensive, they were offensive or operating inside of a of another exposure building. And command broke that up because I think they ended up having 23 companies there, and they managed it with strategic IC, three division bosses, and then there were still companies that were staged. So they they kept that 3D deployment. So that was several houses on fire. Yeah, that that was half the neighborhood is on fire. Big homes. A lot of 1100 square foot slab houses. These were wood frame with basement, three and a half story big houses, right? With in a snowstorm, right? So kind of kind of a note to leave it with, I think, on the division stuff is you have everybody you have to have a policy, you have to train on it, everybody's got to be on the same page, you have to exercise it, and then you have to be willing to talk about it when it didn't work. And look at the real problem, not look for for other problems, right? So just because there's a connection, an example, there's a connection with this accountability piece to this board, the causation problem was that person was signed too many people. It ain't got nothing to do with the board. It was just a connection between those two pieces.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, and I think you know, we should probably come back at another point and talk about the components within a division and really what on deck is in a division, and and because I've had a couple classes lately where they've confused the the purpose of on deck in in a division and and all that, but that is a component of a division boss managing on deck companies. And and and when you're on deck, you're assigned to a particular tactical position as an on-deck company. And so, yeah, well, we can we can hammer on on deck another day.
SPEAKER_02:Well, great conversation. I appreciate what you guys brought to this today. I hopefully we answered some of those questions that folks have about either uh oversaturating a division with resources, how to manage it, how to troubleshoot it if it does happen and break it up. And as always, our email information in the show notes. You can get a hold of one of the guys and uh we'll we'll get you more information and answer questions further. Before we go, Timeless Tactical Truth. You know it. It's a Timeless Tactical Truth from Alan Brunacini. By the way, we have the brand new Timeless Tactical Truth books available, the reprint, I should say. Uh it's the same times, but we reprint it. So uh it is now available at the B Shifter store. And this one, oh God, I love this one. If a fire is an emergency to the fire department, who would you call? We see people who, you know, they're they they run systems that are based on luck and the luck runs out, and then it's a huge emergency. Who would we call? You know, there there is I think another one that uh Chief Rutesini used to say there is no 912. You know, it's like, oh, we need the super firefighters here. They're you know, the 911 guys aren't getting it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So having a system that is clear, has clear expectations, training on that system, and then evaluating how you actually do in the real world tends to bring a level of competence and it tends to bring a level of integrity to the system and the process and how you run incidents. When you have that competency and when you have that integrity, people tend not to get crazy on the radio. They tend not to lose their mind and yell and do all that other stuff. And one of my favorite parts of teaching train the trainers for us is when we get to day four and we set everything up with the Mayday operation stuff, and then we actually engage in Mayday simulations, is being in the middle of those simulations and looking at the people that are running it and going, hey, how come we aren't screaming and yelling on the radio right now? We're having a Mayday. Like, isn't it okay to scream and yell on the radio? No, it never is, right? It never, ever, ever is to a professional. And so when you are practiced and you have a system and a process and you're comfortable and you exercise it and you do all the right things, the the doing everything right before something goes wrong pieces, then you tend to have people that perform that way. And regardless of what is happening in the in the hazard zone, is you they they appear as if they their their heart rate is barely above 60. And and that's a fantastic way. And it's not, it's not I it's not a lack of care, and it's not I don't give a shit, and it's uh it's not it's not any of that. It's actually the professionalism, allowing people to do the things they need to, communicating effectively, and and then dealing with problems when they come or when they arise, utilizing the same system.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so we're we're professionals, right? We're whether you're paid or not paid, it doesn't matter. We're we're professional. We got the classification of professionals to provide that service. And it just the thing that comes to my mind and has for a long time, but now with the ARF module, is we've we've listened to we sh we share quite a bit of audio from inbound aircraft emergencies of of any sort, and you don't have to look far to find audio pretty regularly of different kinds of inbound, you know, air traffic emergencies. And it's like the door just blew off of a 737, and it sounded like they were sitting at the coffee shop having coffee in the morning and went through the process and the the value of of the of the air traffic controller and our world dispatcher engaging with them and just being on the same page, how they talk to each other, how they follow the order model, that communications piece back and forth. It just paints that picture and confirms what Chris said of committing to the 10,000 hours, having a system that everybody is on the same page, and if this, then that. It's and and in our system, the if this then that is the decision-making piece. Like we don't have the one-stop shop answer, but we have we have the if you have this, then we should probably do that. But if you have this, then we're gonna probably do that. And it's it comes back to decision making. And you we can throw out the you know, our lead instructor, Steve Lester, on the three C's, right? That that's a big deal. I love I love listening to the Cobb County audio of those Chiefs because it's like is that real or is that fake? Because there is zero emotion in the fires and though. I mean, we we've had no less than 18 or 20 fires from Cobb County that we've had on the podcast, and you know, a lot of that comes back to a majority of it comes back to their training and focus on no, we're professionals, this is our job, and that they're all on the same page in the same system. It's it's not the all the bell rings, let's let's go get them boys. And it's like they're they're they're guys are gonna do work. I mean, clearly they I mean, they do as much work, I think, as as anybody, but they're professionals and they're on the same page and they have the same system. And I know the task level job, you know the tactical level job, you know strategic level job. We all know that we can't outperform each other, but we're all on the same page. And uh there's no there's priority traffic, we got a victim. And it's like, that's clear, engine seven, you got a victim. Are you coming out the front door? Yeah, we're coming out the alpha side, we need an ambulance, and we're gonna need the cyano kit. And it's like they they get to that because of the training, the expectation, and the training and the reinforcement. It's not a one and done thing, it's not I sent you this class, whatever. But it's also because of something Chris identified a little bit. The tas level guys are gonna get the tas level work done, and the tactical level guys are gonna get the tactical level work done, and the strategic level guys are gonna do the strategic level, and they don't really get in each other's way. They work as a system and have a plan, and they're ready for that next transmission, as we should always be to be Mayday, Mayday, Mayday. We should ever do everything we can to prevent it, but on the person that's having their worst day in the world, if the IC gets amped up, you can forget it. And just you just go out there and look for audio of the Mayday incidents where the IC starts screaming on the radio, and it it just makes it all worse.
SPEAKER_02:Great discussion, as always. Josh and Chris, thank you today for uh being on the B Shifter podcast, and that'll wrap it up for us today. We appreciate you listening. Make sure to subscribe and tell your friends if you haven't already, and we'll talk to you next time on B Shifter.