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Best of B Shifter: Initial Radio Report
Best of B Shifter: The Initial Radio Report
This fan-favorite episode—one of the most downloaded in B Shifter history—dives into what Chief Alan Brunacini called “probably one of the most important communications we transmit throughout an entire incident”: the Initial Radio Report (IRR).
Nick Brunacini and Josh Blum break down why the IRR sets the tone for safety, coordination, and success on the fireground. Using real-world audio, they explore excellent examples from Colerain Township, Ohio, including strong dispatcher interaction, as well as a full IRR, follow-up, and command transfer from the Las Vegas Fire Department.
The episode wraps up with a timeless lesson, as the crew pulls a card from Bruno’s Timeless Tactical Truths deck and unpacks how it applies to today’s incident commanders.
If you want to sharpen your command skills with practical takeaways from the street, this “Best of B Shifter” episode delivers.
Originally aired: October 19, 2021
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Hello and welcome B-Shifters John Vance here, glad to have you along. Today. We're joined by Nick Brunicini, Josh Bloom and we are talking about initial radio reports, setting up the incident for success, painting the picture, giving a good incident action plan, and we'll even have some real-life examples today Some departments out there using Blue Card and using it very effectively. Thanks for joining us on this episode of B-Shifter. All right, we're with Nick and Josh and today we are going to talk about initial radio reports and the anatomy of a great initial radio report. And so often, you know, we've talked about when things go wrong. Today we're going to talk about things going right and really setting up an incident for success. So, josh, where are we listening to this radio report from? And give us a little background before we actually roll it.
Speaker 3:So the radio report's from Coleraine Township Fire Department in Ohio and Hamilton County medium-sized fire department. They've been really engaged in doing blue card for coming up on a year so they're kind of new into it but they're fully engaged, adopted it and trained everybody on the basis of what the program is really built on. And then they're doing really good reviewing, you know, incidents, not in a punitive way but just reminding people let's do better.
Speaker 1:So which is really a part of the continuous improvement model. If you want to continually improve. You've got a good SOG. You train on it, you apply it, you make those adjustments through your after action reviews and then go back to it.
Speaker 3:right, it's a command function really. I mean we use the command function on the fire ground to continually review and evaluate what's going on and revise our action. And then afterwards they're doing, you know, post incident reviews and then they talk to the people and make sure that they continue to refine it to make it what they want it to be. Corwin Township Fire Department. We all know that they experienced a double line of duty death Brockstrom and Shira fell into the basement. So they're moving forward now and doing a lot of things different and this initial radio report that we're going to listen to is just a piece of one of the things that they're doing. I think Chief Pernasini said it a long time ago that the initial radio report might be the most important communication that happens on the fire ground. So just sets the stage for the incident. And when we really understand what the initial radio report means and we train everybody on it, it sets the stage for the entire event.
Speaker 1:All right, so let's go ahead and roll this audio from Colerain Township, ohio on their initial radio report Area 26,.
Speaker 5:District 25,. Engine 109,. Engine 25,. Engine 26,. Engine 55. Engine 74. Medic 26. Medic 55. Quint 75. Quint 78. Rescue 26. On Fireground 5. 83-43, jackie's Drive Structure, fire Cross of Linus Drive and Barthas Place. 8343, jackie's Drive, on Fireground 5.
Speaker 6:It's your Corning Township News responding. On Jackie's Drive. The additional information advises heavy black smoke from the windows. They have a black truck parked in the driveway. Unknown if there are any occupants. Reference 8343, Jackie's Drive.
Speaker 4:Passerby reporting heavy black smoke from the windows Engine 26. We're on scene. We've got a small two-story residential. Got a working fire Smoke showing from the second floor, alpha side, Engine 26, Atlanta Supply Line stretching a hand line for fire control, search and rescue.
Speaker 6:We'll have Jackie's command, you're clear on 25. You're on the scene of a small two-story residential structure with an obvious working fire, showing the fire on the side, a Alpha stretching a hand line for initial fire attack, offering an offensive strategy, switching to fire ground 5, 2035.
Speaker 1:All right, that was a great report that we heard from that arriving company officer and also a great dispatcher on there too. That dispatcher picked up the strategy of what was being declared, even though the company officer didn't come out and say it was going to be offensive. The dispatcher said it and certainly after the initial radio report company officer could have come back and corrected if they were going to be defensive. So let's talk a little bit about this. You know this radio report, how it's a great example of what Blue Card is and how it really sets up the incident for success.
Speaker 3:I guess I want to just hit on. That dispatcher was Andy Knapp, who was a dispatch chief in the county for a long time. Now he's the director of the whole dispatch center in the whole county, dispatching anybody and everybody who works in Hamilton County Ohio. So he's been connected to Blue Card in some form or fashion for like probably 10 years and it's interesting that he was on the desk that night, you know, filling in and just seeing what was going on with the dispatch center. And that's what we hear back from somebody who's a fully engaged train dispatcher that they repeated it all back and gave you the sounds like you're going to be offensive. So he said that and then, like you said, you know the the company also had an opportunity to come back and say no, we're, we're not, but, um, it was a great initial radio report when we have an initial radio report like that, and I think it's really good that we point out positive examples, because so often we talk about what goes wrong.
Speaker 1:This is definitely an incident where things went right. How important is it that we start off the incident like this? What we just heard from Colerain.
Speaker 2:It's very important.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:The initial radio report is your incident action plan for the incident. So that's the way we started off and that first in arriver becomes the IC. They do their size up, just like happened here, and then they share that with the rest of the response in the form of initial radio report that describes the current critical factors and then the actions they're taking within the strategy that they're going to be utilizing to complete the tactical priorities, and then they take command. So it sets the stage for everything that happens after. So everybody responding in is fully aware of the like situation status and then what's going on with those first-in companies. So that becomes a big deal.
Speaker 2:Is a I was a response to for I don't know, 12, 13, 14 years, something like that.
Speaker 2:When you saw the products of combustion on the horizon and that first unit keyed getting ready to give their initial radio report, we would shut off all the noisemakers on our rig so we could hear that.
Speaker 2:Because you would know, okay, this is what we got. And as a BC half the time I knew, okay, I'm probably not going to take command when I get there. It's based on what they said in this report. It's not going to be burning when I show up to the scene, or it's okay, I got to get there as quick as I can, because this is, I need to take it sooner than later, because this thing's going a different direction. Just based on the conditions they inherited when they got there. That becomes a huge deal, especially for you guys, as you're sitting there, like in your offices, as senior executive level people in the organization. That's how you figure out oh, I got to go to this or not. So it really informs anyone listening to the radio what the hell's taking place at the incident scene In real time in terms we can all understand and digest, makes sense of very rapidly.
Speaker 1:Back when our initial radio report was Engine 1's on the scene, we've got a fire and then that would be the last thing you hear from Engine 1. Nine times out of ten, as a response chief, I had to go and untangle some mess that had happened because people were arriving in freelancing or critical factors weren't accounted for or tasks weren't getting done like water supply etc. So that radio report we just heard let us know exactly what was going on. And another critical factor is the size of the building. Right when we start looking at residentials they said it was a small building. So what kind of square feet are we looking at for a small?
Speaker 3:yeah so. So organizations get to decide really for themselves what they call small, medium, large or mega home. But within the blue card system we kind of we kind of give them a template to say, you know, up to 1500 square feet maybe you would call that small and then we really define and can talk further about well, what does that really mean? How big are rooms? Are they divided up? So it starts to paint a bit of a picture, especially in your own response area, like how big is this place?
Speaker 3:And then if we get the medium and we just say 2,500 square feet, it paints a little bit of a different picture, starting to talk about maybe a little bit more open air spaces, starting to talk about vaulted ceilings, maybe attached garages, and then above that, when we get to large, you know maybe 3,500 square feet, up to I don't know 4,500 square feet we'll just say, you know, it's something else, we're starting to maybe get some, you know, theaters and basements and multiple void spaces and attic spaces and maybe a couple of master suite bedrooms.
Speaker 3:And then above that, you know we're talking about the McMansion things that in my time I made multiple fires where we didn't realize that a house had an indoor swimming pool and it's like once we realized that we communicate, that everybody but the size of the building starts to tell you some other things that may be going on there and it just starts to paint that picture for everybody else that's responding in 1500 square foot house on fire with, with that radio report that they gave the first few companies responding and can start to put into their mind what that first engine may need to support their operation.
Speaker 2:When we would do classes, when we first started all this, you would get to the point where the first in company would give an initial radio report. And let's say you're doing like a sets and wraps or something where you got a smaller group, you could stop it and say, okay, where's the next assignment going to come? And the group could say this is where they're going to send the second engine. They're going to do this with the ladder and like 90% of the time that's what happened and without a preload, they just said this is the next logical place to take it. So, by virtue of giving a concise initial radio report, what it did for me during my career, especially when I worked on a company, is if I was like third or fourth due and I heard the radio report you just played, it was like no, I don't want any part of this. They're going to put the fire out and I don't want to salvage these guys fire. So I'm going to sit on this truck and behave. I'm going to stage one time and hopefully they'll finish their business and then we can go back and wait for the next one. Now if you're a response chief, it's a different deal. It's like OK, I think they can handle this with the line. So you know, I'm happy.
Speaker 2:The second engine is staging, because there's nothing to freelance into. So when I get there we'll figure out what's going on with who we got staged and if we need them or what's going to happen next, out what's going on with who we got staged and if we need them or what's going to happen next. So it really starts to kind of set the next order of what you're going to be doing, which is what a good IAP does, is it says, okay, this is what we got, this is what I've done so far, this is the work that needs to be completed and this is how that's going to look. And the more you train together and kind of come to agreement with all that, then you get the what just happened here in Coleraine, where it's like, oh okay, buildings on fire, and we all can kind of figure out what's going to happen next.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So we we talk about it a lot that I don't know. 90% of the fires we go to go out with one well-placed hand line, so in this case the later arriving companies or the response chief pulling up. If they're two or three minutes behind that first due engine and it still looks like the initial radio report, then something's not working. So that's one view that would require one incident action plan. But if they pull up and it's all converted and everything's looking good, then it's a totally different incident action plan. And everything's looking good, then it's a totally different incident action plan.
Speaker 3:So that initial report just sets the stage for the entire event and gives us that initial picture to work from. From that point forward it's always either going to get better or worse. It's not going to stay the same for the most part. So that's that whole piece of why the initial radio report is so important, why we say what we say, why we say working fire. And the guy was very specific on smoke from the second floor. Well, I mean, just in my mind I'm at a 1,500-square-foot house smoke from the second floor, a 1,500-square-foot house, two stories, in that part of the country. The bedroom's on the second floor, so it's probably in a bedroom that's 12 by 12 or 12 by 14, or a bathroom, or that's the only living space likely on the second floor of that home.
Speaker 2:So it just starts to paint a bunch of other pictures when you mentioned earlier, josh, is you have your first two area, so you know what buildings are in it. So, based on the address that you're being dispatched to and then the report you're getting, you think, okay, this is what this house looks like when you talk about vaults or flat ceilings or basements or the era where they were built. So you guys may mention the critical factors. It's all based on the critical factors. Well, those are always changing. Yeah, I mean, you start in a city and they start with full dimensional lumber and this is the way these look when we built them originally in the 1800s. And now we're here and it looks different.
Speaker 2:So, as those critical factors change, is you have to change your fire department, because that's what we respond to the scene to deal with. So, if we go from old growth lumber to glue and no nails, that's going to change firefighting, even the new science, with how we do search and rescue in these buildings where we used to just go in and we would search the thing as quickly as we can. Well, now we've learned that, no, you leave these doors closed and we're not going to get any of the can. Well, now we've learned that, no, you leave these doors closed and we're not going to get any of the nasty stuff on anybody on the other side of them. So it sets the stage. The critical factors become what the training director should be focused on. This is changing. We need to incorporate this because our old actions don't match the new set of conditions this because our old actions don't match the new set of conditions.
Speaker 1:One of the things that the Coleraine Township SOP outlines and it's a blue card SOP pretty much for their command SOP but they acknowledge in the SOP the difference between new construction and legacy construction and they spell out for their people. If it's new construction and it's unabated for five minutes after you get there, you have to think about your strategy versus, I believe they say, 20 minutes for legacy construction. So in a lot of our communities I've got it all and I'm sure everybody else has it all. So it's really interesting to call that out. And it's not a one-size-fits-all. I came into a fire service that was one-size-fits-all. We operated the same on every fire because we were afforded that opportunity, not only because of the construction but the contents within. But now we don't have that opportunity, especially with the newer contents and newer construction, and I think they call it out beautifully and acknowledge that at that department.
Speaker 7:Fire dispatch engine four, engine four. Engine four is on scene of a small one-story house. We have a working fire. We're in the alleyway between 8th and 7th street. We're going to be stretching lines for an offensive uh that to the charlie side for fire control primary. This will be an offensive fire, all units, level one. This will be 8th.
Speaker 1:Street Command. So that's Las Vegas.
Speaker 3:Nevada yeah, so, the city of Las Vegas, nevada Fire Department. So they've been really using the 2nd Edition of Fire Command for a long time and it's in their SOPs and the 8 Functions of Command and critical factors, that whole region kind of I don't know 2010, 11, 12, you know jumped on board and then it kind of went away and now it's back. So they've been fully engaged with it again for like a year and they're just working on getting everybody trained. Everybody's not even trained at the fire department, but they've been sharing some of their successes and they're doing the same thing as Colerain. They're reviewing their audio and then they just remind people hey, you didn't say this, we can do better, and it's. It's interesting A bunch of these places that contact me with with radio traffic or share traffic or share their experience.
Speaker 3:It only takes one or two fires of them having a conversation with somebody about hey, uh, you didn't say strategy, just remember to say that. Is there anything else you got to say about it? They talk about it like one or two times and then that company officer, if they miss something, they're calling their battalion chief and want to talk about it immediately. Oh yeah, I screwed that up. I didn't, I didn't say this, or I should have said that, or it would have maybe been better if I described something more specifically. So, again, that's that. That's that let's revive, let's let's continue to evaluate and revise what we're doing and try to do better and have continuous improvement. And you know, these are two organizations that are clearly working on and doing that, you know, moving forward.
Speaker 1:One of the things that on the initial size up he also reminded everyone to level one stage, which we're doing that a lot in my system only because I have some mutual aid companies that will not level one stage. So we just want to remind them of that. Let's talk about staging for a minute and the importance especially after I see number one gives that IAP what they're going to do, but they're still waiting for a follow-up report and what those next units are going to do in our size up plus three.
Speaker 3:So on this one, that captain that was riding on that engine company gave that initial radio report. You know it was a good front end, painted a really good picture, said exactly where they were because it sounded like they were, you know between a street and an alley, and it's like exactly where they were, because it sounded like they were, you know between a street and an alley and it's like exactly where is this? Uh, what did really good as far as, like, the offensive strategy. And then he said level one, and a piece of that is because they're working in a response system with multiple agencies also and it's new, like just reminding everybody, hey, level one and this was, it was a small house, so just give the incident commander a minute, and it's not even a minute, but just give them a minute to figure out exactly what's going on so that we have the best plan to solve the problem as quickly as possible. So on this one, if we play the follow-up report, we'll hear some really good information come out of it.
Speaker 7:Fire dispatch from command H3. Command go ahead 360, complete. This occupancy does have a crawl space. We're going to be doing a transitional attack on the Charlie side of the structure which is in the alleyway. We'll remain in the offensive strategy. All units continue to level one.
Speaker 1:So with that great follow-up report, um, they talk about making a transitional attack, or what we'd call a quick hit typically, but they have transitional in their sops. I believe they talk about that. Um, the other thing that he calls out is the crawl space, um, so that we know there's a hazard underneath too. We talk about basements a lot, but crawl spaces also pose a hazard, so it's good that he called that out yeah, I mean then he goes further to describe the charlie side of the building.
Speaker 3:Is the alley he's operating on the charlie side? So I mean he paints a very clear picture of what's going on with that. Um. So I think everybody everybody responding in, you know, knows what's going on and can really start to think about where's this building sitting, what is the best way to come into it. It comes back to our level one, staging procedures, like don't go past the last street, last hydrant, the best way to get into this thing, because it's sounds like it's sitting not in a block but in in between a couple of a street, in an alley or whatever it is, and I'm not familiar with exactly where that is, but without even knowing it's not just sitting on the street when we hear systems that and we get new blue card users where their system really self-deploys, auto-deploys, sop-deploys, however you call it.
Speaker 1:What is the difference between that and what we're hearing now in Las Vegas, where we level one stage and wait for our orders based on the critical fire ground factors from IC?
Speaker 3:number one, the person that has the most information at the incident, make decisions to have incoming resources, help that company to solve the problem as quickly as possible because they have the most information, and then they assign companies to support them to solve and meet all of our objectives. So in this case he was gathering some information, said he's making a transitional attack, he's on the Charlie side, and then there's more audio to go with this that this fire actually started on the outside of the battalion and the can report that, hey, we need to get companies in through the alpha side because it's gone inside the building from the outside let's go to that command transfer command.
Speaker 8:One command bye. I've copied. You completed the 360. You're an offensive strategy and you're going to be making entry from the Charlie side. Eight will be the Alpha side. If that's correct, I'll go ahead and assume command.
Speaker 7:That's correct, Chief. We have water on the fire. It appears that this fire did extend into the house. We're going to need another crew to open up on the Alpha side to help us make entry from that point. There are a few doors on this Charlie side that we're going to make access through.
Speaker 8:Hi, copy, just confirming that you're making access from the Charlie side and you want another crew on the alpha side to make entry. I just don't want opposing attack points.
Speaker 7:Yes, that's correct, Chief. It looks like this might be a separate structure that has extended into the main portion of the house.
Speaker 8:I copy Fire dispatch Retire 1 has assumed command. It's going to continue with an offensive strategy.
Speaker 1:All right, let's talk about that command transfer, because that was very smooth, very blue card and it also proves that the order model works, because there was a little confusion on command's part on what actually needs to happen. So he did some great clarification there.
Speaker 2:As IC number two Well, and it sounds like there's OK. The fire started outside. It extended in through the back of the building. We're knocking down the fire on the outside, we're getting into the thing. We need somebody to come in from the front of this to make sure it's not burning above or below us. So all of that is in the. That's his incident action plan and so he hands that off to that BC when they get there. So now they can manage this thing from a strategic position and he's making sense of what they're doing in the front and the back.
Speaker 2:During my career level one staging, I used that more often, or I didn't use it, it's just the fire department had that when I was hired. So in 1980, level one stage we thought it was normal. We didn't know any better. When I promoted up to the chief ranks, you would start to manage incidents. To the chief ranks is you would start to manage incidents. I use level one staging more to keep the first, the initial companies there clean so they could finish what they started without these other companies dumping on top of them.
Speaker 2:Well, here's an example where it's like, okay, we've got the back of it, but we need somebody coming in the other side to make sure that we get the fire knocked down above and below. So there's, in the old days they would have just gone straight to Charlie to try to steal a line from the first in engine back there. Now they have to stage so IC number two can say no, no, no, no, you go to the front and what we're going to do is we're going to complete this incident operation, to complete the tactical priorities and not our own wish list of the activities that we want to engage in. I mean good, bad or otherwise, but yeah, so that's, that's the. That's the beauty of the command transfer is, and as you sit there and listen to it, you can tell what the hell is going on. And what's going to happen next Is it's just, it kind of tells the story of okay, this is where we've been and this is where we're heading.
Speaker 3:That command transfer piece, you know, set the stage also with, with the can report that engine four gave to the battalion, to all those other companies that responding on that of, hey, this fire is knocked down, we really just need to get somebody in through the alpha side to verify that it either is or is not inside.
Speaker 3:And we're not deploying eight or nine how many ever companies were dispatched onto that incident? At the same time, we're using our resources to the best of our ability to solve the problem, based off the critical fire ground factors and everybody working in within a single plan. That started with that first new company officer setting the stage, with an initial radio report and the battalion pulling up and clearly hearing what was going on, cleaning a few pieces up with what exactly is going on, what side is what? Making sure that they weren't going to have opposing hose lines and running a clean incident, instead of everybody just getting there and doing whatever they want to do. That that is fun for the day. And then we use 30 people on an incident that we solved with 10 yeah, I mean that's.
Speaker 2:That's what it gets you is. I see number two takes over. There'll be three companies may be assigned to this incident, based on what we've listened to, and you've got four that are going to stage that don't get to take their pike poles in and spear things with them that don't need to be speared.
Speaker 1:One of the critical things on that command transfer that I think happens and you talk to guys from Miami or Las Vegas or a lot of other rapidly growing Sunbelt areas is single family homes that are divided up with either mother-in-law apartments or a renter's apartment. I know they have that problem in Miami big time and this was great.
Speaker 3:On the Charlie side, Engine four calls it out and says this might be two different occupancies, which lets everybody else know if you make entry from the alpha side you may not get to the back of the house, which is why we do 360, so we get a 360 degree view of exactly what's going on, so we can solve the problem to the best of our ability with the most information, instead of exactly what you said, which the standard approach of we lay a line, we go through the front door and then it's like, well, it's not here and uh, I think it was Homewood, illinois, it was two separate occupancy spaces and it was that fire resulted in a line of duty death or maybe a double on duty death.
Speaker 3:I think that that went in through the alpha side and the victim was on the Charlie side, in a separate occupancy space, and things just didn't go well and they just didn't see the whole big picture of exactly what was going on. Because it's what we hear a lot, it's just what we do. We really get paid to make decisions and be thinking firefighters, company officers, chiefs and be professional.
Speaker 1:And also to add on to the occupancy being split up. That's not just for older occupancies, because we see those modified all the time. The trend right now in new housing is multi-generational housing, so you will get a different unit that might be an in-law apartment that was built that way by the builder and they may or may not have a separate entrance. A lot of times the entrance is off of a garage, a third garage stall. So we are looking at houses right now that are non-traditional houses and are non-traditional time that we're in. So you've got to be aware of all of that and that's why the 360 is so important.
Speaker 2:Well, the other part of that is your critical factors. You really learn them for fires on EMS calls. So you go into these structures and occupancies all day long on calls and it's mostly EMS in nature. We're not dragging attack lines, but that's where you figure out, oh, where this is how this is set up. So that's the other part of the system. As you're going to. Uh, what you do is going to be based on the critical factors in your community.
Speaker 2:So in this one it's like, okay, there may be like an occupancy front and back. You go to a place like wooster and like, no, we don't have them like that, we have these deckers. And so every part of the country has a little something different based on what they started with. But it seems like the trend is going to. New constructions all start to look more like, no matter where you go. I mean, you can be in Los Angeles or you could be in Kansas City, or you could be in the East Coast and if it's a city block apartment with retail on the bottom, they're all 99% the same thing. We got to make sense of that. When we get to the scene of whatever's on fire, is this an old small thing, an old big thing, a brand new thing. So it's just being familiar with where you work, I guess, is the simplest way about it.
Speaker 3:That initial radio report. You know it's one of our slides that we use that when we pull up we have standard conditions, which the standard conditions are simply the critical fire ground factor. So that small two-story house is much different than the what Nick said, the five-story wood frame on top of a concrete platform commercial area. We're going to deploy different. We're going to do something different. I mean, we're even going to do something different when the standard conditions are.
Speaker 3:We gave a size up smoke's coming from the second floor window. We're doing a 360, and I get to the Charlie side and there's a victim hanging out the window with their kid. It changes it up a little bit. What are we going to do? Well, we're going to do what we have to do to solve the problem. So our incident action plan is going to be a little bit different then than if the victim wasn't hanging out the window. So when we have those standard conditions, we take some sort of a standard action to solve that problem. So we have that standard outcome. So I mean, we talk about that a lot and we get to that. We get to there by using the strategic decision-making model. It really walks us down that path of how do we get some standard outcomes and it helps us develop the incident action plan. What is our strategy so that we solve the problem as quickly as possible, without keeping, without getting ourselves into into trouble?
Speaker 1:All right. Well, kudos to the Las Vegas fire department and Coleraine township fire department. I mean they both have great initial radio reports that we can all learn a little something. And if you're interested in sharing our contact information in the show notes and we'd love to have your initial radio report on here too. And before we wrap up this episode, let's check in with a timeless tactical truth. Of course we have these uh nice playing cards available from b shifter at some point and, uh, they're all of bruno's timeless tactical. So we're going to shuffle the deck and we're going to randomly pull out a card after shuffling the deck and Nick and Josh are going to check in on this one. Okay, this one, the five of hearts and it says responding ranking officers or supervisors not on the scene should stay off the radio unless they have critical supporting information that could help the current IC. Let's talk about that one a little bit, because we hear oftentimes people getting on the radio and starting to either give orders or make decisions, and they're not even on the scene.
Speaker 2:It's not effective.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:At all.
Speaker 3:So the person with the most information is the person that's there on the scene. It's not effective, no at all. So the person with the most information is the person that's there on the scene. So all you're really doing is disrupting the incident commanders incident action plan by trying to throw in your two cents about whatever it is, and there may be a time and a place for it. If you heard something that maybe somebody else didn't hear, but other other than that, there's no reason for somebody who's responding, not on the scene, to get on the radio and interact with the incident commander of where you would get on the radio ahead of being there is when the responding chief let's say IC number one gets there, they give an initial radio report.
Speaker 2:They describe an incident that's going to require more resources, let's say, and then just the conditions that you're seeing as you're responding would validate that. Sometimes they will clear alarm and request the next assignment without being the IC. Now we did some podcasts the other day and the dispatch center came back and did that where it was like you have just described something where you're not going to be able to do that with the five units you have on this dispatch. So do you want some more? And usually they'll say yes. But I think the way you you eliminate that is through training and saying this is what. This is how you match the level of resource you need, what you're looking at when you get there.
Speaker 1:I know I've been inbound before to a call and you're getting a bad feeling about what's going on. But I've always resisted the temptation to get on the radio and start taking command while you're still rolling in. And I've heard that done before and all that does is it seems to mess up the scene even more because that IC number two, who's not even there, doesn't have the critical fire ground factors. They haven't done a standard command transfer. They've got no can reports from anybody. They're just doing that solely on the fact that it sounds like the situation's out of control. But they don't really know. But it's that temptation that chief officers have to. I've got to get on, I've got to take care of this, but it never really seems to help.
Speaker 2:You know, because it disrupts, it turns everything on its head. So in those cases, let's say you're two minutes away from the scene why would you even do that at that point? Because I'm going to get there and if you take command before you get there, it's going to take you 10 minutes to figure out what's going on the next 10 minutes. If you wait two minutes, it's going to take you about four minutes to figure out what's going on the next 10 minutes. If you wait two minutes, it's going to take you about four minutes to figure out what's going on. Because you're going to do a command transfer with the ic number one and they're going to at least inform you of what's going on in their world, which will at least ic number two has some information to base the transfer on you had an incident that you talked about before.
Speaker 1:Where you arrived, the, you had interior companies but you waited until you got there on the scene. But you immediately pulled the plug on offensive operations. It was like in a strip mall with a liquor store type of thing, and shortly after you pulled everybody out there was a collapse. But you were on the scene when you did that. You weren't inbound, but you're probably getting some information.
Speaker 2:Well, and that was while you were en route. Well, you're listening to the radio and what's going on, and then you're looking at the conditions and then, when you get there and you see, oh my god, well, there's, it's easy. At that point it's hey, battalion three's on the scene give me emergency traffic, and then you just take it over from there. It's a, I'm changing the strategy, we're going defensive, everybody out, I'm command. So see, but that system was designed around having a BC to the scene within the first five minutes of that incident taking place.
Speaker 1:And if you're in a system where you can't provide a BC in the first five minutes, you have to make those adjustments. Yeah, so if you're in a system where you can't provide a BC in the first five minutes, you have to make those adjustments.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so if you're in a system where you're not getting that BC that's outside sitting in a car in the first five, six, seven minutes, somebody has to be in that position. So whether well you just that initial arriving IC just has to step outside the building, which that's really hard to do because we lose total track of time when we cross that threshold and go into the IDLH environment.
Speaker 1:And having IC number ones trained to the appropriate level really helps eliminate any of the need to do that anyway.
Speaker 2:Really, my experience through my career is IC number one solved the problem over half the time. In fact I got to the point as a response chief I'm going to be the first one to the scene. Are we going to be the IC in this one or not? And you know, you'd kind of figure that out when you got there and think no, ic number one took care of everything. There's nothing for me to do except support the current IC. So I supported by leaving them in command and finishing the operation off.
Speaker 1:And that wraps up this episode of B Shifter. Thanks so much for joining us today. If you have any comments for either Nick, josh or myself, you can check out the show notes. That's where you will find our contact information and, if you like this, please rate the episode highly. Share it with a friend. Help us get the word out Until next time. Thanks so much for listening and being with us and please be safe.