B Shifter
Fire command and leadership conversations for B Shifters and beyond (all shifts welcome)!
B Shifter
Strategic Shift in Cobb County
This episode is hosted by Josh Blum, Chris Stewart, and John Vance.
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This episode was recorded on July 24, 2025.
The B Shifter podcast reviews audio from a Cobb County, Georgia structure fire where the incident commander exhibits excellent command presence during a strategic shift from offensive to defensive operations after experiencing structural collapse.
• Modern residential construction presents unique challenges including lightweight materials and extensive void spaces
• Well-executed command transfer demonstrates the value of a standardized command system
• Priority traffic about garage collapse initiated a chain of information-gathering from interior crews
• Multiple companies requesting to re-enter were respectfully denied after the IC evaluated risk vs. reward
• Excellent customer service shown when crews rescued a cat despite operating in defensive mode
• The "calm presence" of the incident commander created a foundation for fireground safety
• After Action Reporting system helps departments objectively evaluate performance rather than relying on subjective impressions
• Risk management isn't just a concept but the entire command system working together
Register for the 2025 Blue Card Hazard Zone Conference at bshifter.com where pre-conference workshops are filling up quickly.
Hello and welcome to the B Shifter podcast. Today, john Vance, josh Bloom, chris Stewart here and we're going to be reviewing some audio from Cobb County, georgia, on a defensive switch they switch from offensive to defensive and they describe it as a small house, but we'll show you some pictures coming up. It is a good-sized house. I'm sure 100% of their PreConnect could get to most of it. That's probably why they defined it as small, but we'll get into that in a little bit. But some great audio, especially when we get to the point where some of the companies want to go back in and after they went defensive. So we'll talk all about that today and review the audio. We're glad that you're here today. We are looking forward to our conference. I'm watching our numbers continue to go up and classes continue to almost get full. How's that going, josh?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so we have plenty of seats in the conference because we could expand that as much as we really wanted to with the facilities that we have there. And then the pre-conference workshops. All five of those workshops are filling up I think. Maybe there's 20 seats left out of all of the workshops, I think, or 25 possibly out of all five workshops. The Mayday workshop about fool, the critical thinking, decision making with Chris and Eric. That class always goes over very well when people leave there with a lot of smoke coming from their ears but from the gears turning, like we didn't think about that. There's work to do. The safety trainer the trainer that we've never really done before. I think that's well at the conference anyway. That's that's going well.
Speaker 4:The engine ones at the EOC class that should be good because we got, you know, some the parts and pieces of how do you go from the first company officer, given that initial radio report and establishing command, to building it out and using Blue Card as that platform and it just melds really nicely right in. That's really switching to an EOC. It'll be, you know, some front end operations building in division ops, building in your command team, likely switching into a command van and some discussion on that. We might throw in some like a little hour piece in there about like drone and drones and technology, like how can we use that? You know, really look like Not talking about your EOC as much or how you manage your EOC, but like, really, how do you make that transition, how do you get to that point? And then, really, how do you take this back to your fire department or your region and do an exercise of you know, uh, you know, engine one, give an initial rate airport all the way to the EOC, um, so that the first time you're doing it's not the first time you're doing it. Um. So, and like we've talked about for 10 or 12 years, we have some excellent simulations that you can use for that. So that you know the defensive tire distribution center is an excellent simulation to use that you could build all of that out.
Speaker 4:When you start talking about you know EPA and roads are going to be shut down and and you know, maybe water contamination and all of that. So yeah, that's a. So yeah, we haven't delivered an expanded command class where we really went that far. So yeah, that class is also filling up. And then if you're looking to get certified or got somebody that you're looking to get certified. There's just a few seats left in that certification lab. It's that Monday, tuesday, wednesday and we're probably going to intermingle on Wednesday of the cert lab, probably intermingle some of them into that expanded command workshop in the afternoon. To you know, fill out some other positions so they'll get a little dose of that as well.
Speaker 3:That sounds great. If you are interested in the conference and you haven't signed up yet, go to our notes. That's where the link is, and it not only gives you what the schedule for the general conference is going to be. You'll get to meet our instructors there. We have a cadre of over 23 instructors that will be there. So get a little idea of what they're going to be about, a description on each pre-conference session that we're having and really what those classes are about, and then you can sign up there too. So check that out at our bshiftercom site or you can follow the link in the notes.
Speaker 3:Looking forward to another great one this year it's the first day of the pre-conference is September 29th and then October 2nd and 3rd is the general conference, the big conference. So we've got the big conference and the pre-conference. Chris, I'm looking forward to your strategic decision-making class. The material from that is fantastic and every time that I talk to folks who go to that it really does get their gears turning. I mean, josh, wasn't lying with the smoke coming out of their ears, because you know it gives them a new perspective on decision-making. What would you say about the class to somebody who hasn't taken it before?
Speaker 5:I really think the strength of what it is that we deliver and just so everybody knows is that Eric and I are not delivering anything new or anything that hasn't been discussed previously, but we're taking a more specific look at strategic decision making and really talking about how you utilize strategic decision making and then how you can actually train, exercise and then look at how you performed, or how companies performed out, in the field with making decisions, the critical decisions we have to make on the front end of incidents.
Speaker 5:And then so, when you leave, you've got a fantastic tool and system to be able to utilize and sit down and drill with, either at the individual or company level or at a battalion or department level, to be able to help folks start to figure out and utilize the same process, from the firefighter to the IC number two, in how you think, how you make decisions and what are the critical elements that we need to really be paying attention to to make good decisions on the fire ground. So all those things then get tied to effective tactics, effective task level work that needs to take place. So we've got a good system. It's the blue card system that's been around for well started in 1985, right. So we're going to look at it in a more in-depth evaluative way and give people a tool to actually go back and utilize and improve how they think and what they do inside their organization.
Speaker 3:Nice Well, we're looking forward to that at the 2025 Blue Card Hazard Zone Conference right outside Cincinnati. Go to the link, check it out. Anything else on the conference.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So I just wanted to throw out there the, the after action reporting system we launched at last year's conference and it's, uh, like anything in the fire service. Um, you know it takes a little bit, I think, for people to grab onto it. But organizations that have grabbed onto it, you know they have some. I guess there's some organizations in there. They got like 25 working fires that they've done you, you know, completely after action on.
Speaker 4:But I'll just throw out one kind of local here in Cincinnati, just an hour north of Cincinnati, roughly Fire department's been doing blue card about a year and they, they had a working fire, ended up having a victim. They pull them out, victims end up living, all of that. So they, they, if they didn't go through and do like an actual formal review of the incident, everybody would have said oh, this was fantastic, everybody did good and they did, they did, they did a nice job. You know A to Z, really good initial radio report. You know some good assignments. The battalion did good calm Steve Lester's three C's. I think they did pretty well hitting all of those. But you know, when they really broke it down and went through the incident in a little bit more detail, they identified things that they can do better right.
Speaker 4:So, and that's what it's all about is how do we improve or do a little bit better tomorrow than we did today? So that's a big takeaway from the AAR and that's going good. We've heard, you know, some feedback from the end user and we've made some adjustments to it based on that and we're super excited that now we have the AAR program for the ARFF certification program. That is also going to be, you know, available. We're going to keep building out the AR. So at the conference we're going to have like a big session review, kind of like where was it, where is it, where's it going, and then Eric and Chris will be presenting you know, more detailed. How do you use it all of that for anybody who you know is connected to it and has any questions, and those who you know is connected to it, has any questions and those obviously that haven't connected to it yet. And that program's available to everybody. That's an instructor. So if you're an instructor you can use the AR program. It's just an added value to having your instructor license.
Speaker 5:Yeah, if you don't, if you don't have a system in process to evaluate how you're doing at actual incidents, then all of your assumptions about your performance are completely and totally subjective.
Speaker 5:Input radio traffic and then be able to evaluate the specific command components and how you're actually utilizing the system, how effectively you're utilizing the system.
Speaker 5:And then, once you do that, then you can start to look at is oh, what kind of decisions were we making?
Speaker 5:Did we make really good decisions that directly impacted the speed, quality and effectiveness of completing the tactical objectives based on the radio traffic that? You have right, it's not describing and keeping track of every task level element that took place on the fire round, but it's helping that organization do that. So if you're a fire chief, ops chief, a shift commander, a battalion chief that really actually wants to know how you're doing and how you're performing, this system gives you that objective process to be able to do that and then to be able to directly impact how you're training people to improve it and then see are we actually doing better, doing better? So the departments that have slowly gotten into this and now their eyes are like oh, wow, this really helps us figure this stuff out rather than relying on impressions and subjective thoughts about it. Let's face it we're humans. There's a ton of bias in that right, so this is a great tool for that, and then hopefully we can garner that same vision and perspective in the R4.
Speaker 3:Well, before we roll the audio here, I do want to just put a call out to folks. If you have audio such as this that you'd like us to feature, we are looking for it. Audio such as this that you'd like us to feature, we are looking for it. So, all the time, if you have a success or a lesson learned, even if it's through the AAR process, share it with us. We'd love to share it with everyone else. So our emails are available in the notes as well. You can send it to us pictures, helmet, cam, whatever you have. Send it our way and we would love to feature it, like the audio that we're featuring today from Cobb County, georgia and Josh. If you could help us set the stage for the audio that we're about ready to listen to, we've had plenty of audio from Cobb County.
Speaker 4:They're a well-connected blue card fire department From the get-go. They, you know, committed with instructors. They kind of set the stage of what are we really going to do with this? They've trained folks that are in positions to make decisions and they've taken it further, I think of you know connecting the firefighters to you know kind of a why, why we do this. And they're far enough down the road with it now that it's really become this is, this is the Cobb County way, right? I mean, you don't even have to, they don't. You don't call it blue card. This is the Cobb County commands system and this is how we do business and this is how we make decisions right.
Speaker 4:So anybody that's familiar with Cobb County knows, you know they have plenty of people that teach on the circuit all over the place and they are fantastic with the work that they do. We've had no less probably than a half a dozen audio clips we've listened to from there of them with successful rescues and you know part of that, I think, comes back to the you know part of that, I think comes back to the, you know, decision-making piece and and that they're they're, they're on the same page and that they put together a plan before the bell rings, right and everybody's more on the same page. And when I say that I'm not talking about SOG driven, engine one does this and ladder one does that and engine two does this, and all you have to do is listen to their audio and hear that that is not their fire department. They are 100% a. We make assignments based off of critical factors, so kind of a if this, then that kind of piece, right. So they get there, evaluate the problem, kind of make a little bit of a diagnosis, deploy and if they need this is a perfect example deploy. And then if they need to adjust, they adjust as well. So, yeah, this is another you know great clip from them.
Speaker 4:And it's good when we can show the system being used and exercising on a significant fire and then having a strategic shift right, like you know, a couple rooms off. Yeah, we can show, you know, the front end, the initial radio report and all of that, which is where it all starts and that's a critical part and piece. But you know this goes out. You know a little bit further with the strategic shift that they do at the incident and you know, I have to say, listening to all the audio we've had from cobb county and and many other jurisdictions, uh, when they have a system, the tone is is that the tone of the incident commander and the tone of the companies is just in a different place?
Speaker 4:Right, I mean this, this incident commander. When we listen to this it's like, yeah, this is my job. He makes good decisions, he's calm and is clearly in command of the event. So, thanks to Cobb County for sending this to us and I think it just makes it helps. Other organizations you know, uh, that are working on getting to the point where Cobb County is currently. As far as you know the process and how well they do on the fire ground and communications and giving an assignment, everybody being on the same page, and you know all of those parts and pieces of the system. Not just it's, not just how it sounds, right, I mean, you can listen to it and, like Chris said, well, that made sense because they identified this, so they're going to do that.
Speaker 2:So that kind of sets it up Engine 17 radio. Isn't this radio report?
Speaker 6:Engine 17.
Speaker 2:Engine 17 is going to be on scene of a two-story small residential. We've got heavy flame showing from the Bravo side garage and Alpha side corner. We're going to be out pulling a pre-connect in the offensive strategy. You can go ahead and balance the alarm. Engine 17 will have command Out doing a 360.
Speaker 1:10-4 on scene. Two stories small residential structure have heavy flames on the Bravo side garage and Alpha side Out pulling a line. Alarm has already been balanced.
Speaker 7:How's my. A's on scene 10-4. Ready to battalion 5 on scene 10-4. Engine 13 How's my 80s on? Scene, therefore Ready to have a battalion five on scene. Therefore, h-13 is level one behind bat, five Battalion, five command.
Speaker 2:Command. Go ahead battalion five.
Speaker 7:Yeah, I'm clear. You're working fire control on the Bravo side in the garage. You got extension in through the office side. That's correct. Give me a cam.
Speaker 2:In process of the 360. We're going to have a walkout basement on the Charlie side. Got a pool in the back as well, completing 360.
Speaker 7:I'm clear. Battalion 5, radio Battalion 5. Ready to show Battalion 5 the command we're going to remain in the offensive strategy. Go ahead and have accountability with Battalion 5 Command on the off-side of the structure. Sorry, command to Engine 17.
Speaker 6:Engine 17,. You're on command.
Speaker 7:Hey, just to clarify, what did you have the truck assigned to?
Speaker 2:I haven't given them an assignment yet, but I'd recommend certain.
Speaker 7:I'm clear we're going to try to hit it here with this, get a two and a half out there and work on some of that on this command truck 17.
Speaker 6:All right command.
Speaker 7:Hey Jeremy, how's it looking through the office side of the front door? If we get a line on that, are we going to be able to make it here?
Speaker 6:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7:Okay, if you need to get your line in place, looks like you can get it out of Engine 3-1-4. I'll have you go in fire control to the off-side.
Speaker 6:Engine 10,. It's on 3-3.
Speaker 7:10-4, fire control off-side Command Engine 13.
Speaker 2:Hey, go ahead and go in see if you can get a primary on the structure, please All right 13,.
Speaker 7:We'll go in on the off-side and get a primary the structure.
Speaker 6:Please All right, 13, we'll go in on the outside and get a primary Command to Engine 10.
Speaker 7:Engine 17 to Command priority traffic.
Speaker 6:Last unit of priority traffic, go ahead, engine 17, we've had a collapse in the garage Looks like the wall is about to get up towards us.
Speaker 7:I'm clear we've got a collapse. You've done the sealing of a garage that's collapsed inside itself.
Speaker 6:That's clear Command. It's pushed the exterior of the wall out. Looks like we might have a collapse out on the Bravo side Coming up.
Speaker 7:Okay, we'll spike that guy off the line on the Bravo side there. Command to Engine 17. Or correction Truck 17. All to Engine 17. Or.
Speaker 6:Correction Truck 17. Go ahead, commander.
Speaker 7:Hey, give me a can on the interior Right now.
Speaker 6:we just have heavy smoke, light heat. No flint visible as of right now.
Speaker 7:Okay, commander, engine 17. Rescue 23, level warm with two Commander engine 17. Rescue 23, level 1 with 2. Commander Rescue 23. 23,. Go ahead, I'm going to have you on deck Alpha Italian 4, rescue 23 on deck Alpha Italian 4 is on scene, commander Italian 4. Go ahead, you come to the car. I'll have an assignment for you. Command to Pump Operator Engine 17.
Speaker 6:17, go ahead.
Speaker 7:Hey, you got a permanent water 342,.
Speaker 6:We just got permanent water.
Speaker 7:Squad 6,. We'll see you in the five Command to. Engine 13. Command to Engine 17. Cor 5. Command to Engine 13. Command to Engine 17. Correction Command to Truck, 17.
Speaker 6:Engine 17 to Command. Is your traffic clear?
Speaker 7:It's 17,. That's clear. Have you seen any flames?
Speaker 6:Do you repeat your last?
Speaker 7:Commander Radio.
Speaker 6:Commander go ahead.
Speaker 7:Radio. You can get emergency tones, please, commander Radio, go ahead. We're going to get emergency tones, please, commander. I do Emergency tones. Commander, all units work in interior. Vacate the structure, go ahead and exit the structure. I'm going to try to reset this out before we do anything more. Bar behind exit Commander, truck 17.
Speaker 6:Truck 17, command, you got traffic.
Speaker 7:Yeah, I see you out of the building. You got all your people.
Speaker 6:We're heading out the front door now.
Speaker 7:Command to Engine 13.
Speaker 6:13, go ahead.
Speaker 7:AHA, you're out of the structure, roger, that we're out the side.
Speaker 6:All right, I'm clear. Let me go here for a second. All right.
Speaker 7:Command to Engine 17. Engine 17,. Go ahead, command. I'm going to get you somebody over there, we're all.
Speaker 6:Command to engine 17 engine 17 go ahead command.
Speaker 7:I'm going to get you somebody over there. We're going to try to do some work with that deck gun here and hit it on that alpha side in that garage area 17 clear you're sending somebody with a deck gun on engine 17 command to truck 17 that's right command you got one of your guys. You can print on that deck gun for the pump operator on 17. 10-4. Radio to Command.
Speaker 7:Command to Radio go ahead 10-minute Bud Smart. Radio is clear on the 10-minute Bud Smart. We still have advanced heavy fire. It's working the attic through the structure Parcel collapse. On the Delta side we're currently in a defensive mode 10-4. It's 23,. Level 1, Parcel collapse.
Speaker 7:On the Delta side we're currently in a defensive mode Tower it's 23, level 1, with 3. Tying 4 to command. Go ahead Tying 4. Everything looks good on the Charlie side here. We got a Hold on a minute there. We do have one of the cats in the back window here. If you have someone available to ladder, we could probably get it out. Okay, how's that side of the structure? Does it look stable? 10-4. I don't see any active fire on the basement or first floor at this time, just some smoke. Okay, I'll get a crew over there. Command Hitchin' 10.
Speaker 7:Engine 17, this is Command. It'll be all right if we open the deck gun. Yeah, go ahead and hit it on that alpha side. We may have to move to aerial here in a second Go for engine 10. Hey Lou, can you see if you can assist Battalion 4 with getting that cat out of the window? 10-4. Radio to command. Command radio go ahead. When needed. The homeowner is currently at 863 Paces Farm.
Speaker 7:Okay, you can have her make her way. Tell her to look for the red pickup with the blinky lights in front of her house. So far. Matt Ops. We'll see Commander Matt Ops Go ahead. Have you set up rehab on the office lot? Matt Ops, clear Commander Truck 17.
Speaker 6:Commander truck 17. Go ahead, Commander.
Speaker 7:Hey, can you work your way to your aerial to get it set up? Work with engine 17,. Get a water slot and force Commander slot 7.
Speaker 6:Go ahead.
Speaker 7:Give me a recon over there on the Delta and Charlie's side and see if there's anything we can do before we set the ladder truck up. As far as fire control or searchable space, we haven't checked.
Speaker 6:Battalion 4 to Command.
Speaker 7:Go ahead, Battalion 4. There still is some searchable space on the main floor living room. I don't see any active fire on the Bravo Charlie corner.
Speaker 7:Truck 17 to command. I see him Command. We're getting out of the first floor. It's already been completed. We're all clear. Okay, we're going to call it good at that point this guy was a homeowner. He said he's confirmed everyone's out of the house. There's no one in there. Come on 7th. I'm going to ask. He's got with the homeowner. He said he's confirmed everyone's out of the house. There's no one in there. Squad 7, come in, go ahead, squad 7. There's searchable space here on this Charlie Delta side on the first floor. Okay, we're good. I've met with the homeowner. He's confirmed that there's no one in there. He's certain of it.
Speaker 6:We're going to remain in defensive on it. Squad 7, come in Command in there. He's certain of it. We're going to remain defensive on it.
Speaker 7:Come on 7th Command Command to Squad 7, go ahead, hey Chief, as far as fire control, it looks like it's all in the attic. Doesn't look like there's much on the second floor. We should try to get up there before it seals. Mike, I'm clear on what you said about the second floor of the attic. I think as much as we've got going on right here, we're going to stick with exterior operations.
Speaker 6:Okay, 4. 17 Bravo to truck. 17 Bravo Go ahead. You getting ready to set up the truck.
Speaker 7:Command to Battalion 4. Go ahead for Battalion 4. Make sure there's no one around the collapsed area back there. We're about to set this truck up and this Bravo sidewall is looking worse. Copy that we're all leaving the Charlie side at this time. Battalion 4 to Command. Command Battalion 4, go ahead. All personnel are clear of the Charlie and Delta corners, except for the line in operation. I'm clear, thank you Radio to command.
Speaker 7:Commander radio go ahead 20 minutes benchmark. Radio. I'm clear 20 minutes benchmark. We're still on the defensive strategy. Active fire is shown from the roofline.
Speaker 6:Come on Command to 17,. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Command to 17, go ahead.
Speaker 3:I'm going to need to this one and, as josh pointed out, very calm. Let's talk about the structure first. Uh, tell us about this house, josh yeah.
Speaker 4:So when I, when we first listened to this, I, like the two of you, was like, uh, uh, like, what's really going on here? And then when I looked up the address and found this picture, it's like, oh, this is a little different. And even so, even looking at this picture, uh, you know, given that size up, it's like, yeah, it's a maybe small medium house. Uh, if it's in, you know, in their area, my area, most all of us that are on here today's area this place probably has a basement in it. Right, they make additional living space.
Speaker 4:A takeaway from this is, when you look at that roof line, there is who knows how many void spaces in that roof area. The fire started on that Alpha Bravo side, on that, uh, alpha bravo side so in a second we'll take a look at that picture of that side and it's a very large garage that, um, you know, towards the charlie side, has a, uh, bonus room maybe, if you will, that sometimes they make a bedroom or you know, whatever. So, pretty much so, that alpha bravo corner, all the way to that charlie side, you know, on the second floor level, you know, was involved and burning and well into the roof. So we just wanted to show some pictures before we really, you know, got into the nuts and bolts of how it went when we, as we listened to it and you know my view of how it went when we listened to it is they did a nice job.
Speaker 4:The people in key positions did a nice job and everybody on the fire ground as I listened to this, they were, for the most part, on the same page. They understand that we have a system, they understand that we have an organization, they understand how we're going to work and when things were communicated, people, you know, acknowledged it. So I'll kind of, well, before I jump into the initial radio report piece Chris, do you got anything? Before we jump into the breaking it down a little bit further, no, I think, yeah, no, I do.
Speaker 5:So. The size up of this? You're just simply talking about size up and size up of the structure, right, size, height and occupancy type. Obviously, this is a house, we know that right. But the size and height? So it's two-story, likely with a basement, and once you get around to that Alpha Bravo side, you see that this rascal is pretty deep, and so this has got a decent size interior space standing over a basement and, it's likely, wood framed underneath all that brick veneer, and so there's a lot to be thinking about here with regards to we've got a decent fire in here.
Speaker 5:How long is that? How long is this building going to tolerate it? And do we have enough time to get some of the stuff done we want to do with regards to the life safety and, uh, and then, and and fire control, uh, um, in this building, right? So time overlaying, uh, the sizing up of this, uh, the structure itself, structure itself, um, this is a, uh, this is a. This is a good one to actually talk about, and I think they did a fantastic job with it, and I think we'll kind of break that down as to why this was a good job.
Speaker 3:When, uh, the command transfer happened, starting with with that, you know, after the size up the IC, the BC coming in wasn't sure on the position and function of, I believe, ladder 17. So just this week we were doing a class and the BCs here ride by themselves and they were saying, well, we don't ride with somebody. Well, here's an example where they are actually riding with somebody. It's a two person team pulling up and even those guys maybe don't get all those assignments. So he did a really good job at at coming back and asking what that assignment was and and tell us the importance of doing that. We know he's filling out his command worksheet, but but what? Why is that? Before he even gets the ball rolling on anything else? Why is that so important?
Speaker 5:So for me, I think that the IC number one set the stage with an effective communication of that on-scene or initial radio report right In what is going on and what are they doing, and then beginning the command process right, beginning the command process right, and so after that's done, the initial action's taken place of getting a line to wherever it was that they wanted to start to address that garage fire, and then I'm going to be completing the 360. And during that 360 is when IC2 of a time five shows up and they use the system the way it's supposed to be used in that transfer of command right. The initial uh part of that communication is the unit rundown and because he only knew the position and function of engine 17, wasn't sure the position and function of truck 17 or ladder 17, uh asked that question and got it clarified and very simply IC number one said, yeah, I haven't given them assignment yet. Here's what I recommend. I think it was search is what that assignment was. And IC two says, okay, cool, got it, thank you.
Speaker 5:And then they continue the transfer of command with their can report, essentially is getting the 360.
Speaker 5:Hey, here's what I'm seeing as I walk around this. And that's acknowledged, and then IC2 grabs a hold of it as the incident commander and then starts to move forward with their incident action plan and that plan is clearly communicated through the assignments for truck 17 and then the next arriving company. So it was utilizing the system to get really good information out that actually helps that IC move forward with what needs to happen here to get fire control and get it all clear in this thing. And then the way he did it, um, his matter of fact, comfortable, confident tone, uh, and and we'll go to to kind of some of bruno's stuff, that cool command thing, uh, those cool command things that he's actually demonstrating, um, and those are the things we described. The other one is a little bit of grit. No, he knows and understands what's what's going on here and has a clear idea of what they're going to be comfortable doing with moving forward and makes good decisions in doing that I want to back up just for a second and hit that.
Speaker 4:So the 360, identifying walkout basement. Fantastic that there's a pool in the backyard. During the day they probably see it, but at nighttime you know that that sometimes becomes an issue for. So that that was. That was another excellent piece as far as the 360 goes and I'll jump to that the command transfer piece of that truck 17,. You know everybody says all level one, they're sitting there doing nothing, they're doing nothing whatever and it's like.
Speaker 4:No, the companies that are responding on the front end of an incident have a pretty good idea of what their assignments likely could be to support us, addressing fire control and primary searches, right Based off of an initial radio report, a follow-up report, what they see when they get there, when they're pulling into the block, if they're. You know in that, you know second, third, fourth, fifth due, you know position. So you know, in this case that truck had an idea of what the assignment could be. They didn't just go and do it. But the critical part is that it was communicated so that the incident commander and everyone else knew their position and function. So the incident commander's, like else, knew their position and function. So the incident commander is like okay, I know where they're going to operate and everybody else knows where they're going to operate and I'm checking off that this work is being completed. There's no mystery of whether it's being completed or not, because it's been communicated.
Speaker 4:I said, I told you that's what I want you to do. You acknowledge that's what you're going to do and then that's what I want you to do. You acknowledge that's what you're going to do and you know. Then that's what happens. And that's why, as you listen, as we listen to this going on further and further, uh, you know, command never one time had a, had a, I called the wrong company or it never seemed as if they were wondering who is where right.
Speaker 4:So there was at one point, I think, five or six assignments were made and commanded. A fantastic job communicating with those people every single time. And another piece of that is not one time did I hear any radio traffic have to be repeated. Well, that's because we use the order model, and the order model is that verification of. I communicated to you, you acknowledged what I asked you to do and now I suspect and expect that that is what you're going to do, unless you cannot do it. So you know, all of those things are key parts and components of the blue card and command system that help an organization be able to deploy and be as effective as Cobb County Fire Department is in this case.
Speaker 3:And really less than the first 10 minutes had the biggest changes on this incident. From the time they got there to going defensive was before the first 10 minute notification and it started with the priority traffic. Why is that priority traffic important? And you could see the gears turning already with the IC, because then he starts to get can reports.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So I think a piece of that is, you know, the I want. I want a whole bunch of firefighters that are professional, that want to do the job and want to do it to the best of their ability. Right, and I am not going to say aggressive or any of that, I'm just going to say it just like that. That's what I want and in this case, that is what they have and people are going to go as far as they need to go or where they feel comfortable going, based off of making good decisions when they operate within a system and they've been trained on the critical thinking parts and pieces.
Speaker 4:So the priority traffic piece here that came from engine 13 priority traffic it got everybody's attention on the fire ground and it's like, okay, what's going on here? I don't think command was surprised by the priority traffic, probably based off of the amount of fire that they were seeing in their experience, you know, on that corner from the garage, and they said you know, we, we've had a collapse. And then they went further and said it looks like this wall is, you know, pushing out, so that that set that stage for uh, everybody. That like, okay, there's there, there's a lot more going on here, but the priority traffic piece goes back to, you know, many of the other podcasts that we have of you know what are you about to say? Well, when I say priority traffic, that means I have priority over everything else on the fire ground, except for a mayday, and nobody else is going to cut in or say anything.
Speaker 4:And command is saying okay, engine 13 said that they have priority traffic. I'm looking at my worksheet where are they operating at and what are they about to say? And then everybody else on the fire ground is listening to that. As far as, is there more work for me to do here? Or what is this? So priority traffic is typically a red flag that requires typically some sort of change to the incident action plan and, in some cases, you know, a change in strategy. Though the change in strategy didn't happen, you know, right away here they, you know, did some other work as far as all clears and checking to see what else they could do before they changed strategy.
Speaker 5:So that priority traffic was. That occurred here was important information for not only the IC to know and understand but for the companies working in and around Engine 17 to know and understand. Right, and so they chose all right. No, I see something important here. I'm going to use priority traffic, used exactly the way it was supposed to be used, and then communicated those critical elements to the IC. The IC then needs to take that information and process it and say okay, to what degree does this need to change the incident? And really the choices are from nothing to extremely drastically change like a complete one, aid, right. And so he processed that information and didn't make a huge change in the beginning, but started to recognize okay, uh, I want to see if we can get some all clears in places. I want to make sure that we've done everything, uh, that we need to do, um, but if this doesn't get better fast, I'm, I'm making the change. So it totally set that, uh, battalion five I see number two up to be able to make a change and utilize the system the way it was. And again, it was done in a very matter of fact way.
Speaker 5:There was something significant happened on the fire ground. It got commuted through priority traffic. Nobody yelled, nobody screamed, nobody panicked, nobody ran around in circles and didn't know what to do. Right, they were comfortable with it. I saw it. Here's what's going on. Let's make some decisions based on it. Use the process for it and it was a big deal, but it wasn't a big deal and that's fantastic.
Speaker 4:And I want to highlight here because we get a lot of questions sometimes about the one, two, three progress reporting and in this case IC2 did a really good job with that of communicating with the other companies that were operating inside the building and around the building, as you said, chris, of where are you with all clears, where are you with fire inside the building? Battalion four where are you with the condition of the building right, so that one, two, three progress reporting is communicating with you know the companies first that are doing things that have the biggest impact on us being successful on the event and those that are closest, really you know, to the hazard. So it's that helping the IC to make decisions. So they see what they see, they've heard what they've heard, but now they're trying to gather a little bit more information from those other companies operating at the incident before they make the big shift to a defensive fire.
Speaker 3:As you guys are pulling up to a structure like this, because I couldn't help but think you know so much of what we see still in the fire service and even some of the audio that we've featured lately have been in older buildings. This is a fairly modern or very modern house lightweight construction, probably big open areas, you know, not a lot of separation, as Chris pointed out, the void spaces those are all critical fire ground factors too. I mean that really gives us a very small envelope to get searches done to try to find the seat of the fire to make an impact. Let's just discuss for a second how different this is from pulling up to a 1950s style Rambler house or something like that.
Speaker 4:Chris, why don't you hit that? From all the work that Phoenix did early on with building collapse and impact of fire, and work they did with Nest early on and now where it's at, with UL, what do we know Based?
Speaker 5:on research. So we go ahead of. Prior to. All of that is what Vincent Dunn recognized about trust roofs and started communicating very early. And then, when Jeff Griffin's incident happened here in Phoenix, where he falls into the, the attic from operating up on the roof on a lightweight tile roof home, that we start to recognize the fragility, if you will, of these homes when they're under fire load right. And so when we get there early and we start sizing this up, I want us to recognize that's a big house. I want us to recognize those significant attic space.
Speaker 5:It's put together with lightweight construction. It's got a concrete tile roof on top of it. There's a little metal there over the front porch, but I'm really worried about those big, long spaces and those heavy weights Now that building construction is built to tolerate, is built to manage that weight. But what they've done is they've used math to their absolute best ability so that what is the least amount of material I can put in this thing to have it hold up meet the building code requirements to support everything that's on top of it and the structure itself. So how do they do? Why do they try to use a minimum amount of material? Because it's less costly, right. So all those things together creates this formula that when we show up, we need to be able to recognize these things and be able to say, okay, I recognize that. That's the situation here. This is the occupancy or building that we're actually dealing with Now.
Speaker 5:Based on the fire and smoke conditions, is that becoming problematic for us? And in this case, had a garage fire, likely garage fire that extends up into that attic space livable space above the garage and then the attic above it, right, and really starts to degrade the structural integrity of the home, right. So they get there, have a decent amount of fire, start making a fire attack, start to do the support things that are going on in and around it, getting it all clear, that type of thing and this structure starts changing right, because it starts giving away, because time the amount of time that it's been burning right is it becomes a critical factor. So we're starting to put all these things together, assess this and be able to figure out what it is that we should be doing that's both reasonable and most effective at this, at this, and, like Bruno said, typically the fastest, most effective way to do something is also the safest right. So they're measuring that they actually put that into place.
Speaker 5:This is a home that has a basement. It's got a walkout basement on top of all these other things, but through their assessment and their size up and their 360 and all that, they determine, yeah, there is a basement. The basement isn't an our issue. The fire where it is, where it's going, where it's extended to, that's our issue right now, and they start to deal with that. So there's this whole system and process of size up and evaluation and why does it matter and when does it matter? That is important that you actually need to exercise it. You actually need to teach people how to do. It's not intuitive. Nobody's born with it, or very few people maybe are born with it right, and so it's something that, from firefighter to ic, needs to actually be, uh, worked on so he, uh, he gets that priority traffic because they have the collapse in the garage.
Speaker 3:It starts to to push the wall out. Then he immediately calls and gets a can report and I think Chris, you just put it he's putting the puzzle together, there's pieces that he's starting to put together. So he gets that can report. Let's start there and then how that quickly escalates to a defensive strategy to a defensive strategy.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so from what I hear listening to this is acknowledgement of that serious information. And then, okay, now what's going on around it? How far is this extended to? What impact is it having on the other companies that are working on the first floor, that are working on fire control, that are doing the things inside and out that need to be done? And it's clear that some work has been done. It's clear that all clears have actually been made on the searchable space on the inside of this house. It's clear that they're trying to figure out. All right, can we put water on this from the inside, not just the outside? And all those things matter.
Speaker 5:The IC is not going to make a huge change here until he gets the perspective of everybody else in working around them, because he assesses this isn't like an abandon the structure or abandon your position type of incident. So he gets that information. And the critical part of asking for those CAN reports is the needs. Yeah, I want to know what's going on, I want to know what you've been doing, but what do you actually need inside there? Is there something else we can do to fix this or make this better based on what we've been communicating, or is the need of all right? There really isn't anything we do.
Speaker 5:We need to change positions and, in this case, change strategy to be able to do this more safely and effectively. And what are we actually going to potentially write off and lose by doing that? Key element there is what have we searched? And so use that information. Okay, now I feel like we're in a comfortable place. Ultimately, he's going to verify that search information with what the homeowner is going to tell him there's some validation between those two things and then makes his decision on the strategy and then going through the incident and reaffirms that decision and reaffirms that decision and reaffirms that strategy with no, we're going to stay defensive. I'm very comfortable with what we're doing and I don't believe we're going to save uh, we're not going to save anything else that we haven't already evaluated yeah, so I think a valuable piece there was.
Speaker 4:You know, command gave the assignment to Battalion 4 and then again asked Squad 7 to you know, check, like you said, chris, about can we stop this fire from the inside. You know, give me some information on that. And you know, as far as the search piece goes, you know that Truck 17 came back and gave valuable information of. We already already got an all-clear on the entire first floor, right. So that was just like a re-verification piece and that's just everybody operating on the same page, right, everybody listening to the radio, everybody being on the same page at the event. And you know that bit of traffic from Truck 17 was valuable and command making the decision of RUC-17 was valuable in command making the decision of okay, we now I have double verified that we've already completed a search in the searchable space that squad seven and battalion four identified.
Speaker 4:So let's, let's move on. I don't want to jump past the the you know the customer service piece that when they identify the cat in the window that they went and address that, right, I mean people, pets, pills, pictures, you like all of those parts and pieces, right, it's like they, they identified that and then they address that to solve that problem. It's a, it's a critical factor, right, it's, it's somebody's pet. So, yeah, when, when you're using all the parts and pieces of the system all the time, you know, I think, I think this is this is what it ends up sounding like, right, what we, what we arrived to and what the critical factors are, we only have an impact on what we can do with them. You know, after we arrived there, what we pull up to we have no impact on.
Speaker 4:And in this case, you know all the critical factors, and the fire load and the fact of the collapse were all critical factors. That command was making decisions on. Wod 7 reported what all those other companies reported, that like 12 or 14 minutes had passed, when they, you know, actually make a strategic shift. Not counting how much time had passed, you know from the time this fire started, because you know, when we look at the, when the engine pulled out of the fire station, they reported a header from a distance, right? So I mean it was burning for who knows five, seven, 10 minutes before the fire department even got notified.
Speaker 5:If we want to know the value of rescuing the cat, ask the homeowner afterwards, ask Mrs Smith afterwards, how important that was right. They'll be very frank and that may have outweighed the vast majority of the things that we could, we could have saved there. So that's that stuff matters and it was. It was the right thing to do. I want to talk about that, that decision and the change in strategy, going from offensive to defensive, and because afterwards there's some critical things that actually occur here with the companies, which I think is absolutely okay and so he makes the decision based on that critical information. It started with the priority traffic and then got that further information from the CAN reports of all the companies working, said no, we're going to change strategies, we're going to move from offensive to defensive. And then utilizes an effective system, the system to be able to do that and that lets everybody know no, here is the change, here is the strategy that we're going to operate in moving forward. And then I want to be able to account for the position and function of everybody who was working in and around that building uh, afterwards. So he does a very nice job of doing that and being able to account for that and then starts to give clear information about okay, here's our defensive instant action plan. Moving forward, we change strategies. All right, here's what now, what we're going to do, as, as we move forward, you have battalion 4, who's assigned to the Charlie side. You have Quad 7 that I think is working in and around them. You may have another company I think it was Engine 10, maybe that got the cat. So there's companies in there.
Speaker 5:Communications to the IC that hey, I see searchable space on the first floor, I see searchable space on the second floor. Or I see space on the second floor that doesn't have bad conditions but the fire's burning in the attic above it. We might be able to get up there and slow this thing down. And each one of those communications, I think, is an important communication. I don't think any of that is unneeded, unnecessary or inappropriate. Those companies are showing up there to try and make this incident better and when they see something they are recognizing it, they're communicating it. The IC is processing it, making a decision and saying yes or no, and in this case each one of the times was no, but that no was validated. No, we've truck 17, said they already got an all clear on the first floor. So we're not going to duplicate that effort. And I've got the RP here with me who is clearly stating that they're confident that nobody is in there as well. Not just the RP's opinion, but truck 17 saying no, we had already actually gone through that.
Speaker 5:And then squad seven, I think it was saying no, we can get up on that second floor and I can get water up into that attic and the IC is going OK, I understand that, I appreciate that, but we're not going to save anything else. We're still going to have the same outcome if we try and take that risk. So we're not going to do it right. And so I want to show. Like Josh said earlier, I want to show up with companies that are ready to go to work. They're chomping at the bit, they're looking for opportunities to go to work and they're going to communicate those opportunities when it's right to do so, and the IC is going to make a decision yes or no and then stick to it. Those companies are going to take that answer, whatever it is positive or negative in their view.
Speaker 5:Right and go. Okay, I got it Understand In this case. Yeah, we were not going to go up there and do that In this case, yeah, we were not going to go up there and do that Perfect. Then we all move on, and so that was an excellent use of the system and it was an excellent the leadership component of actually listening to your companies. I understand what you're telling me. Here's the decision I'm making and this is why Because in the moment, because he had the opportunity to do it, that's how you build. That's how you build an effective command culture and trust between ICs and crews and company officers.
Speaker 4:That's the way it's done.
Speaker 4:So I think that's a really nice job.
Speaker 4:I just had one last thing I wanted to hit and that was when they went defensive and they were going to put the ladder pipes up and all of that. That they did a nice job of making sure that defensive means you're not in the direct hazard zone. It doesn't necessarily mean that I'm not inside of the building, it's I'm not in the hazard zone. So they did a nice job of making sure that everybody was all clear on that Charlie side before they started flowing water, you know, onto this, and that everybody was out of the collapse zone. So that that they did a nice job communicating that between command and battalion four and that they were, that they were out of that area. And then I think that paints the picture and it just reminds everybody else in the fire ground like, yeah, we don't need to be standing next to the building, I don't need to go break out that window, I don't need to pull down this piece of siding. We're not operating in the hot zone in no way, shape or form when we're defensive.
Speaker 5:So one thing to ask is whether you put this thing out from an interior position in that attic fire or you put it out from defensive positions outside the hazard zone with you know we see in the picture here with a ladder pipe. I know there was a two-and-a-half flown from the exterior. There was a deck gone at some point. Whether you're doing it from any of those, the question is does any of those actions or any of those positions change the overall outcome? Nothing would have changed If we would have put that attic fire out from the second floor, from positions up there. We're still likely burning a vast majority of that roof off or at least burning up a good amount of those trusses. I still don't think they would have been very successful. If they're doing that, it's highly likely they wouldn't have been successful doing that.
Speaker 5:The outcome's the same on all of it. So if the outcome's going to be the same, let's figure out a way to minimize the amount of risk and the amount of exposure that the firefighters are going to have to be able to do that, right? That's actual risk management. That's identifying what is lost, and I'm not going to accept any more risk for what has already been lost right. So anybody that might be confused about risk management, maybe that can help them in figuring it out and that risk management was connected to a system. It was connected to size up on the front end of it and on the back side of it it was connected to strategy and action and it was a piece in between that helps us come to those decisions, and this was a good example of actually being able to use it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's excellent, chris. There's been a ton of talk about that with the whole risk management thing. You know a lot of opinions flying around about that and it's like no, risk management isn't one slide and risk management is not just some words. Risk management is the entire system right, everything from deployment to your size up to the critical factors to. I mean, it is the entire system right, and it's just where then? Where does that fit into? Where does all of that lead you to with the risk management? It's all. It's all a giant puzzle, and if any one piece is missing, you did not complete the puzzle.
Speaker 3:So all right, you guys have time for a timeless tactical truth.
Speaker 5:I came for the timeless tactical truth. Here we go.
Speaker 3:Timeless tactical truth from Alan Brunicini. In the face of chaos, the IC's calm presence becomes the foundation of fire, ground safety. Getting that calm presence? What does it take to get there for a new and or experienced IC?
Speaker 5:I think, first and foremost, it's the focus and understanding that that's the expectation, like that's what I want to be, that's where I want to go, that's how I want to execute this strategic level command position. And then what does it take? It takes deliberate understanding. It takes training, experience and practice to actually be able to do that. You need to have some serious incidents, some critical decision experience to be able to get there. And then you got to have. You actually have to be knowledgeable and you have to be have some foundation of competency in that, because what spawns from that is the confidence.
Speaker 5:And when you have a level of confidence in the process, the decision-making, the work that needs to happen on the fire ground, the time that it's going to take to actually do that, the respect for the effort that it's going to actually take to do that, you put all those things together and that confidence then allows you to move through this process without elevating your anxiety in a raised tone of voice, in a higher pitch, in speaking more quickly, in rushing through things or feeling like I need to skip this to get to that right.
Speaker 5:There's like this long drawn out laundry list of things that actually help us get better at that. But the critical element is that's what we want out of our ICs, and then a system that does a pretty good job of selecting and positioning those people to actually be able to do that or who can do that, to put them in those positions right. And forcing people who aren't ready for that into those positions is never good for the organization. It's never good for that individual. So, like I don't know, there's probably only like 80 or 120 hours worth of stuff we could talk about on what it takes to get there. But that's, and that's what this, that this, what this this guy on battalion five did, right, like he executed any news. That's what he was supposed to execute.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that and that just pushes right over to everybody else, right, like he executed any news. That's what he was supposed to execute. Yeah, I think that, and that just pushes right over to everybody else, right? When calm is contagious, hold that whole thing. I know it's worn out, but it's like it's true. It's when you're confident in what you're doing, what you're saying, the decisions you're making, it rubs off onto other people, right?
Speaker 4:So I think something that becomes a challenge is that accidental success on the fire ground when you have, when you've made things work but you didn't evaluate through some sort of after action of how well you really did. It's just, we got out of that kind of thing, or high five, we did a really good job thing when it really matters, and even seasoned incident commanders that use a system, the incidents where those folks would get like a little I don't want to say uncomfortable, but like antsy in the seat, a little bit Like I'm not. I'm not a hundred percent confident of where we're going with this little piece or this incident or whatever. The people who've had that accidental success go go to the uh, not so calm, right? They? They start screaming because they don't know where people are assigned, they aren't comfortable with the incident or the events that are occurring. They don't know what to do next.
Speaker 4:So, um, yeah, you're. You're not just born with that calm presence. Cool, it's a cucumber thing, right? I mean, it's a, like chris identified, it's a. It's a very long drawn out piece of. They. Don't pin a badge on you today and say you're an incident commander and you're going to be calm and so on automatically. It's a process and having a process and a system is a key part, I think, to the foundation of the calm presence of an incident commander.
Speaker 3:All right. Well, we would like to thank Cobb County for their audio once again and for sharing that with us and just excellent work on behalf of the ICs, the officers, the firefighters there, and we really appreciate their leadership position and sharing that with the fire service. They do that so often within that organization. I think it's just another great marquee organization that we work with and get to learn from them constantly. So we want to thank them for sharing that with us today. Also, thanks to Josh Bloom, chris Stewart and thank you for joining us today on the B Shifter podcast. We'll talk to you again next week, thanks.