B Shifter
Fire command and leadership conversations for B Shifters and beyond (all shifts welcome)!
B Shifter
Technical Rescue
This episode features Grant Light, Josh Blum and John Vance.
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This episode was recorded on January 16, 2025.
A technical rescue operation at a Duke Energy smokestack highlights the critical importance of communication, teamwork, and planning in emergency situations. The coordinated efforts of multiple teams allowed for the safe extraction of a worker trapped 150 feet in the air.
• Overview of the emergency call and initial fire department response
• Assessment of the worker's situation and elevator stability
• Communication with technical experts for real-time updates
• Formulation of a rescue strategy with a focus on safety
• Use of crane technology over alternative rope rescue methods
• Successful communication between rescue teams on-site
• Post-incident debriefing to assess response and identify lessons learned
• Importance of training and understanding equipment in rescue scenarios
Welcome everyone to the B-Shifter Podcast. You've got John Vance here, along with Josh Blum, and today Grant Light is with us. Good day, gentlemen. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:Doing wonderful.
Speaker 3:All good, just still got a ton of white stuff on the ground here and I think record cold temperatures coming this week for sure.
Speaker 1:Cincinnati you guys have been hammered. I mean, are you at record snow right now? Is that the deal?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:I think we've got record snow and then we've got more snow on the ground Than we've had for any period of time I think ever. And then I think Monday, this coming Monday, I think it's going to be like record cold. Those guys coming in town for a trainer Phoenix, las Vegas and Houston I told them you better pack an extra bag.
Speaker 2:We had some there in town. It was cold. We had to provide them with coats.
Speaker 1:I am at the AVVCTC in beautiful Phoenix right now it's a balmy 68 degrees. It almost feels like we have a little bit of a marine inversion. So there's actually a little humidity in the air, which feels fantastic. But unfortunately I'm going to have the harsh slap of reality around 1030 tomorrow when I land at MSP and find myself back in Minneapolis with much of the same weather. So I'll enjoy this while I can.
Speaker 3:John, I'm super happy that humidity must be causing your mustache to grow back.
Speaker 1:I know you like that. It's kind of like a chia pet.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I like the John Vance mustache better than the 13-year-old boy look.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you very much. It's funny. I did a class and somebody called it my credibility mustache. You're growing a credibility mustache, aren't you Got to be recognized as an incident commander? You need a mustache Mustache. Today we're going to talk about an incident that Grant responded to recently, and it was a technical rescue incident, and Grant is also a member of the USAR team very experienced with technical rescue incidents, and you happen to respond to them a lot. Why don't you set the stage for us, grant, and let us know what this incident was and how you guys got called to it?
Speaker 2:So I'm on a couple of different teams. This was the Northern Kentucky technical rescue team got called. So there's a power plant down river from Covington, kentucky, owned by Duke Energy. Basically it's got a 600, 900 foot smokestack and at the 300 foot level they go up to that level quite often and there's some they can do some testing of the smoke that's coming out, all of whatever they got to do. There's like you go inside the smokestack there's like a little space there with a desk and some meters and all kinds of stuff that they go up there and then do their job and then they come back down to get there. There is an external little teeny, weeny, one and a half man elevator that runs on the outside exterior of the smokestack elevator. That runs on the outside exterior of the smokestack A guy was going up that got to about 150 feet-ish and then a part that keeps the elevator locked onto the track. It's just a tubular track that goes up. It's kind of a set of wheels that kind of lock in Like on a roller coaster. You see the wheels that kind of go on the sides of the track.
Speaker 2:That piece fell off. Well, it partially fell off and jammed up the machine. So then they stopped moving. They tried to lock the brakes, move the brakes, they did a couple things to try to get it to move and then the piece kind of swung around and was now kind of kind of hanging there below the below the uh, the one man external elevator. So at that point they were like we're not doing anything else, like we're, we're done, we don't want to screw with it. Um, they ended up calling local fire department. They don't really have an on-site team, um, so they called the local fire department, which called the techno rescue team which got a bunch of us there. So that's kind of how it laid out Originally. Man stuck 150 feet in the air in an elevator on a smokestack.
Speaker 1:So was this a rope rescue? Is that? Is that what you were planning on at first, or were you looking to mechanically take over the elevator? What was the objective when you first got there?
Speaker 2:So we obviously were not the first people on the scene. We were called after, you know, fire department got there. Some other people showed up In Kentucky the EMA director. Ema people are kind of overriding, they have a lot of authority. In some states they're more of a support and in kentucky they're kind of more of a a big part of what goes on, especially in something like this. Um. So they were there and um originally.
Speaker 2:So we had a couple plans going. So first off, we had to find out kind of what happened. How's the guy in there Find out what the elevator company says? You know how precarious is this position. So that was really the first thing they had. They called the elevator People, had a big discussion with them about you know what actually moves the elevator, how does it actually go up and down.
Speaker 2:And in today's technology the advantage you got is you can zoom in on it with your camera, take a picture, zoom in on that picture, take a screenshot and then send that to the elevator people and they can actually look at it, as opposed to you kind of trying to describe it. You can actually, you know, send them pictures of what's really going on and then they can go like OK, that piece is important For its movement, but it is not important for it to stay to fall or not fall. It's not that, you know, it's not a cog in the wheel of moving up and down, but it does keep the elevator lined up. And they suggested not moving it, so we didn't. But they said it was not in their word. You know, it's not going to fall, it's going to stay where it is. That doesn't keep it from falling in any way, shape or form. So that was good news. And then it came down to how are we going to get the guy out of there, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:He was stable, no medical emergency or anything.
Speaker 2:No problem at all. Very cool, dave. I don't even know his last name, I just know it was Dave on the radio. Because I had a radio, I could talk to him. How you doing, dave, I'm fine, okay. Um, we did talk to Dave and I asked him if he had a cell phone so we could have a much longer conversation, that kind of thing. And uh, he said no, so they're not on on the site, they're not supposed to have cell phones. So he said no, I ain't got one. So so everything had to be over the radio. The issue we had is they told us his radio battery was getting low, so that's why we were going to try to shift to the cell phone plan. So that didn't work out. We just gave him the information, said you know, turn it off for 15 minutes, we'll, you know, turn it back on and and we'll, we'll talk to you again, you know in a little bit kind of thing. So we just overcame that issue by just limiting what we the conversation.
Speaker 3:Grant. What was the was there? Was there any value in? I know you've spent some time in some of these places. You know along the Ohio river there's coal powered. You know energy plants everywhere, so they're not all exactly the same. You know a lot of them that I think that we've done training in for on-site groups, right, the?
Speaker 3:you know the elevator runs on the inside and some of them does run on the outside and you know all of that. But you know, is there? I guess that's almost like a maybe, like a start of a pre-plan in your head when you're going into that Is there? Was there value in that? Were you thinking about that? Were there. Were there people there thinking about it?
Speaker 2:Well, one thing I guess a lot of people may not know and we learned because, josh, you and I did trainings down in some of these plants is that the smokestack is really two layers. There's an inner layer, which is usually brick, and then an outer layer that you don't want to see, which is concrete. I don't know why this is what it is. And then there's a space between those two at the bottom that can be much larger than as it goes up and up and up. As that thing goes up, that space gets closer and closer together. So if you stand back and look at the smokestack, you can see that it's tapering in. The internal one generally stays straight and then the outside one tapers in.
Speaker 2:So much, in this instance, at the 300-foot level, we ended up climbing up. So at the 300-foot level you're still climbing between those two layers. At the 600-foot level you would still climbing between those layers. To go to the 900-foot you have to go outside and climb an external ladder. So those layers are getting closer and closer and closer together as they go up. And then there was walkways, internal and external, at 300 and 600. And then you had to go the rest of the way up. We didn't go that far, but if we had to, you would have had to been on the exterior of the smokestack to do the rest of the climb.
Speaker 1:So that smokestack's 1,000 feet.
Speaker 2:Nine-something, yeah, wow, wow, yeah, that's a lot of steps.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when you're flying the CVG here and you look along that river, there's I don't know probably 50 of them that you see right around CVG and between, between Southern Ohio, and then you know Kentucky and Indiana, all all up and down through there, all of the old or the Duke energy plants and now they're being, you know, some of them being converted over or whatever, but they're, they're, they're mostly all the same. All, mostly, all those coal powered plants are similar in how they're laid out and built and what they do and how they work. And you know, I guess technology advancements, but the smokestacks, a lot of those were type of incident, using the critical factor, risk management, all the different components of blue card and how do you interface that to the rest of the command system?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I think, just like anything else, the critical factors are somewhat easy to figure out, just like you asked. You know, like, first off, is that elevator stable, not stable? That's really the most important thing. Do we have a bigger issue? If somebody, if they caught to the elevator people and they said, yeah, that piece like keeps it from falling, well, then now we got to figure a way to try to grab the elevator or get the. You know, we have to deal with that. We're having them say that it's not going to fall. That was a huge step forward, right?
Speaker 2:So then the next thing, as you said, is the guy. Is he in any issue? You know, is Dave have a problem? Does he? You know, and there was, he had no real issues. He said, you know, I'm fine, I'm good, it was cold, but he was a worker that was prepared for that. You know, it's an external ride up that elevator, whether it's working, not working. So he wasn't, you know, didn't have his Bermuda shorts on, so he was all ready to go.
Speaker 2:So then it just became a what's the safest way to do this? And you know, not always the coolest way to do it, but the safest way to do this and those discussions were going on with the Duke people, the EMA people, the fire department people and the tech rescue people. So that was there, was, you know, the management. It was all like a unified command. Basically, what you missed were in, that was I know this sounds weird to say, but you were in a bubble. You're in a protected, chain-linked, secured space. I mean, all those power plants are all secured. So there was good, bad or indifferent, no media to deal with, no, anybody but us. Right, there was nothing else that we had to like. Oh, we got to go talk to these people and who are those people over there? And it was all. It's very controlled. So that really made it easy, because it was just us there coming up with a joint plan and then, um, then going with that plan, kind of thing so what did the plan end up being and how did you guys communicate that?
Speaker 2:put together the IEP and and get it done so, um, the the safest way, the the safest way was to get, because he was only at 150 feet only, but he wasn't at 300 or 600. So it was to get a crane and use a man basket to lift the crane. You know, lift the man basket up, bring it up beside the elevator, get him out that way. So that crane. So they do a lot of work there. Obviously, you know it's a big plant. So dealing with crane people was no issue for them. You know, they made some calls and they said it would be there in like an hour and 10 minutes. And I think it pulled in at an hour, whatever, whatever they said it was there, like that. So they needed a crane, a man basket, um, and so that that showed up, just fine. Well, that that was that called. They said it would be there. They've been there before. So it wasn't like this was, you know, the crane? People were like, yeah, we know exactly how the setup is there. Yeah, no problem. So then the plan B was a rope rescue which brought. So we obviously couldn't take the elevator up, so we had to climb it. So not a big deal. In the first there's a 50-foot section. Well, 35, 50, whatever. You climbed up and then there was a ring there, a catwalk ring that went around the whole inside, and then you moved over to just a straight ladder. A straight ladder that went up to the 300-foot mark. Straight ladder that went up to the 300 foot mark. So, um, and we did ask C Jeannie, like is that 300, really 300? Or is it you just call it 300 and it's 280 or something like that? And they said, no, it's 300. So a 300 foot rope wasn't going to work. So that was, you know, part of like hey, we got to make sure all these numbers, you know, are right. If they said it was oh well, it's really 250, we just call it 300. Well then we might've got away with a shorter rope, but okay, we had 600 foot ropes there, so it's not a big deal.
Speaker 2:So there was a group of four of us. We talked it out on the ground what our plan was. We were going to climb I want to say minimally, and just take a. We had a 600 foot tagline that we could lower down and start pulling up equipment, if that makes sense. So we weren't trying to carry all that stuff up, cause that would have just been a lot of work.
Speaker 2:The other thing that you don't realize is that that space between those two smokestacks is not out in the open air and that inner smokestacks hot, and so we're all out in, you know, 10, 20 degree weather, whatever it was, with all our warm weather stuff on. But thank God there was a crossover at the 30-foot level because we got to there. It's like this ain't working. So everybody most of us took off, like took a moment, took off our harness, took our big coats off, our sweatshirts off, all that stuff, but the harness is back on, and then just kind of stuck it behind our back between the harness and ourselves, and then the climate was no problem, but it was hot in there. So we just dressed down and we got up. So the problem not problem.
Speaker 2:They had a system for um man capture. So as you climbed up, this piece slid on a pipe and then, if you were to lose your footing or whatever it would, I want to maclay lock to keep you from falling. Um, that, that piece that they gave us to say here, this is what you use, worked fine, but it didn't match the ladder that goes up to the 300 foot level, so that really that system was only designed for whatever. That first level is 35 feet, something like that 50, I don't know what it was, but it was designed for that because they do that a lot. And I've since talked to the safety guy at the location and I've today actually.
Speaker 2:I talked to a guy who does a lot of standby. He's a fireman days off, he does confined space standby and all that and he said, yeah, they never climb that ladder, and that's what the CG&E or the Duke guy told me. He said we never climb that ladder up there. They're actually, I think, today going to do a thing where they actually climb it, just to see how that all works out. So we so that piece didn't fit. All of us had um lobster claws, so just a big like giant carabiner that you can lock, unlock and then use that to just climb hook, climb, hook as you climb up. So we just switched over to those and then climb the other 250, whatever it was, up to the 300 foot level.
Speaker 1:It really wasn't that big a deal um to do and, uh, you were mentioning they even you know one of the first alternatives that they were going to try their ladder truck and that didn't even come up right.
Speaker 2:Nobody's got a 150 footer.
Speaker 1:No, this isn't China. Yeah, it's European. So you know, when you're interfacing, you know coming in is really the expert on technical rescue and the people who are going to oversee that part of the operation. When you're talking to command, are there things that you ask command or is there some way that you get that established that they are looking at risk management and monitoring? Essentially, they had their act together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it was this closed group. Everything was just face-to-face out in the open. You know, it wasn't like you got to know. They didn't bring in a big command post. We're just all standing there basically in the base of the smokestack.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, we had a guy who was in charge of the rescue side. So we talked to him and said here's what we, you know. He said, yeah, you're going to run the rope thing. Okay, you guys are going to do the man basket thing. You figure out what you need. You figure out what you need, how we're going to make all this work.
Speaker 2:So we kind of came up with our plan, what our thoughts were, without ever having been up there. And so then we, you know, and then the other team that we all met back together again said here's kind of what we think, and then. So then he said, yeah, they talked to the elevator people that's good, the crane's on the way. So he, he was kind of our middleman to the overall overarching management of Duke Energy and the fire department and the EMA, that kind of thing. But there was no like we could have walked over to the Duke if there was really any questions for them. We realized early on that they just they use the elevator. So the questions about how the ladder and attachment they we don't know because we don't use that.
Speaker 1:We don't do that, so okay what was the time elapsed from the time the fire department originally got called and you could be approximate to to when the the patient was removed?
Speaker 2:well when we got there. So so probably two, a little over two hours, two and a half hours maybe, because it wasn't an hour for the crane to get there. So there was a little conversation to make that happen. So we were, I was getting there with another guy and when we started having the original conversations they said, hey, they've already called for a crane. So now you know it may have taken us, from when we originally left, half hour to get there, crane an hour, and then really, once it was there, it wasn't that long to get him down.
Speaker 1:With a crane company. Is that a crane company you guys have dealt with before? Did you say that, and do they know the kind of rigging that needs to happen for a rescue type situation, or is it just normal rigging that they would use to move manpower anyway?
Speaker 2:Yes, it's normal man basket rigging. A couple of the people that were put on that group are on the federal team that I'm on and we do a HERS class. So a lot of those guys have had rigging. We do man basket work with that hers class we do so they they were there to help kind of augment the hey, this is what we need.
Speaker 2:That's different than putting dudes in this thing to cut something with a torch or something like we're going to step out of it. So we need to be able to have an extension on this. And so they were able to kind of explain what what we were going to do, different than what the riggers, crane people are used to. So it wasn't like like hey, just going to pay him this, I'm hanging, we're actually going to step out and then climb down inside that car and put a harness on Dave and then hook Dave up, get him out into the man basket and then we're going to come out and get the man basket. So that was, you know, a little different than what the crane people are used to, kind of thing. Right, but I don't, I don't think there was any real pushback, it was just like we'll explain it to you and we'll work on it together. Then we'll go do it kind of thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, great, I think one of the things just to circle back around on and that whole crane thing is, uh, um, you know, in that world sometimes we don't know how we feel about that, right, depending on who who is it as somebody on site? Do they know the people? And in this case the guy wasn't hurt, but it still was an unstable position. I mean, even the company said you know what? Yeah, this, this car is not going to move, but they're not there. They're telling you it's not going to move and hoping that it doesn't, right, but uh, that's a big difference.
Speaker 3:I think when you're talking about you're going to be moving somebody out of something that is broken 150 feet in the air in a basket that's hanging Right. So you know that whole process of you know what does that really look like? And you know you guys obviously had you know plan B set up of just doing the rope system, had you know plan b set up of just of doing the rope system, um, but that's one of those things. I think that what's the risk involved here? And then, what are our resources? Like? Who is this really so?
Speaker 3:Like you said, you know having guys that are part of that team in northern kentucky, but they're also, you know, on the federal team as rescue specialists or or heavy riggers or whatever. You know that's a big deal. So, you know, knowing those people, and then, uh, just want, I want to talk about a little bit of like we've kind of breezed over it and, you know, we, we kind of talked about the. It was controlled a little bit more because there was no outside influence, because you're inside of a, you know, secured facility basically. But you know, how know, how, how does that, how does that really work in this instance and like in other instances that you've been exposed to or experienced with, with, uh, an outside team coming in and collaborating and working with you know, the local jurisdiction, and then the people who are there on site, who are the subject matter experts, who we really need to lean on them, kind of like at a hazmat incident, like, oh, absolutely, what is what is really going on here? So can you just elaborate on that a bit?
Speaker 2:Well, the we've, we've been involved, or I've been involved in incidents. We, the team, the teams I'm with, where kind of what you say? They've gone the whole gamut where you, we've walked up and they go, it's yours, you know like you do, you do your thing and we'll just kind of step back and then, when we've done other incidents, we, we, we're, we're not comfortable with that. So we, we want their people involved to know what we're doing. We don't want them just to go hey, whatever you say goes like. We want to be questioned, we want to be asked, you know what we're doing. We don't want them just to go, hey, whatever you say goes like. We want to be questioned, we want to be asked, you know, like so, so they fully understand what we're going to do. Um, that takes a little bit longer in some instances, um, but everybody's on the same page, as opposed to somebody walking away go, I got no clue what they're talking about. Well, we'll explain it to you, we'll. We'll put it in plain English. And we want your buy-in, we want everybody's buy-in. Especially, you know, like you said, the fire chief of that local jurisdiction is ultimately in charge and the Duke people are ultimately in charge. So we want them to understand, like exactly, you know, what we're doing here, like how we're going to do.
Speaker 2:I think they, I think they understand the man basket side a whole, because that's something that they do a lot there. Right, that's a big, giant plant and they have to get to places and that's that's not foreign to them what we were going to do with it climbing onto that thing, and then and I'll get to a conversation about the doors on the, on the, on the car, that kind of stuff, that's a little different. So there was a conversation about that, so I'll just go there that elevator, when it gets to its normal point, has a side door that opens, all right, and then it has an escape hatch on the top. So there was talk about well, we can just put the man basket next to the side of it and just open that door. And and our people were like no, no, no, no, that's a open, he doesn't have a anywhere to clip on inside there. You open that door and the wind, and it's windy, the man basket's blowing around, I mean like you're 150 feet in the air, big wind, with, you know, being pulled around a curved tower, um, so we did not want to do that. That would. They were like, well, yeah, can't you just go up and open that thing and have them climb over? And it's like no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:So there was a big conversation about that. We would rather get it up to the point where we can go down through the hatch. Get him in a good harness. Get him, you know, knowing what it is. I mean, he wears a harness every day, not our harness, right, he wears a worker's harness, um, so, you know, make him comfortable in a enclosed space with that. Then get him up on top with with ropes on him and then, uh, actually we had like a little four to one so he could, we could tighten it up as he moved forward. We could keep him, you know, tight and then step into the basket and then the next our guy then could go up and do the same thing.
Speaker 2:So there were. There were like their version of yeah, just go up and open that door and he climbs out. It's going to be good. And our version of he's 150 feet up with no railing, no, nothing that that don't work right, it's going to be a little harder to go out the top, but it's going to be way safer because at the top of the little elevator was a railing, so we can get him up there and get him comfortable and then he can, you know, we can hook up some stuff on him to make it safe and then he can step into the railing, so kind of just letting them understand the the process we were envisioning. So they were like, oh okay, we get it. Now you're so. Yeah, you're right, you're right, we could open that door, but there's nothing stopping something bad from happening that car jiggles or drops or does something weird. It ain't worth it.
Speaker 1:If this had been a rescue situation where you'd come in and say, hey, this guy's having an immediate medical emergency or he was injured and you're going to have to expedite that, would you have done anything different? He was injured and you're going to have to expedite that, would you have done anything different.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I mean, well, I don't know, I don't, I don't think setting up a whole rope system and doing all that I don't think in the end would have been faster. The crane got there pretty fast, you know, within an hour when they called it the setup for the man basket, you know, to hook that up and then test it and do all the things and hook our ropes on it. The things we needed to do non-standard work out of it, um, really didn't take that long Cause, like I said, we were really lucky. The guys who were assigned that job knew about rigging, so they kind of they were able to to talk, to talk to their, to the crane people, explain how we were going to do this, what we wanted to do. They weren't speaking in two different languages, so that really helped out. And then, and then they, they moved off on it. You know it was. It was really, I think the right people were there to make it work out pretty well.
Speaker 1:When you're working with outside agencies and this sounds like it went well, a great cooperation, and you guys work together on a regular basis. But back in the brief period that I was involved in technical rescue, we'd go 70 miles away and oftentimes you know it'd be a farm where the farmer didn't even want to call 911 to begin with, they were trying to take care of it themselves or the local jurisdiction tried to take care of it, not having any technical rescue training. So you know, as a sidebar to this and again, this incident went well. But how do you kind of mentally prepare yourself as you're responding in to try to get a situation like that under control and start to actually manage the risk with the critical factors, having a decent incident action plan? When you're not, it's not in your favor with the local jurisdiction or the persons having the emergency.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of that comes down to people skills probably. You know, when you show up like're like a, we're like a third party there, right, you had the fire departments there, whoever's there, and then this technical rescue team was kind of the third party. We we in this instance, we knew everybody, so it was not an issue. But we've been called way far away, um, and shown up more in trends. I think, josh, I think you were at a trench rescue we made years ago. You showed up and there was a bunch of people in the trench and and so you can't just go hey, you know, you got it.
Speaker 2:You kind of do some just in time training to the chief, kind of like, hey, here's the risk, here's what's going on. Yes, I, you know they're down in there, but you know, you know you're going to get pushed back and that just starts a downhill slide, kind of being more of the hey, let me, without you knowing it, let me quickly teach you, like, what the dangers are here. You know the dangers are this, this, this and this. You're putting your people at extreme risk. We can't even see this guy. He's totally buried, like the chances of survival are very slim. But but there's nothing short here. You're putting your people at an undue risk, and so usually, if you kind of just kind of lay it out nicely, not telling but teaching in a way, they kind of come around and go, okay, yeah, you're probably right, like hey, we should get them out of there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe we should get them out of there. Yeah, maybe we should. So, looking, uh, that you mentioned the harness, and the uh industrial harness is different than the rescue harness. How different is that? And is one more cumbersome than the other?
Speaker 2:oh, for lack. Uh, well, they're, they're. They don't have as many attachment points generally. They're generally just designed to be off their back. The the connection point is a harness, does a strap they're all one piece, so one big to be off their back. The connection point is a harness does a strap. They're all one piece, so one big long strap off their back, not on their waist where it's easier to move around, and stuff like that. They're, really.
Speaker 2:They wear those things all day and they may, if they're lucky. They'll never hang in that thing, ever, because it's really just designed for oops, I fell, I didn't grab onto this or I leaned out too far, or whatever reason. It's just a design to catch their, capture them if they fall. And then it's not going to be comfortable at that point because it's not designed to be hung in where ours are designed to be sat in, hung in, hold you in the right place, not cut off circulation here or there, that kind of stuff. So they're, they're, they're designed to be I don't want to say more comfortable, but yeah, kind of more comfortable and and ergonomically better for someone to be in than the worker style so you guys get to them, you're going to get them in the basket, you get them down, and what happened after that you know once, once you started removing them so the man's basket got there.
Speaker 2:They had a like a pike pole ceiling hook with them so they could pull themselves in and close and hold on. We can talk about the rope side here in a little bit, but so the wind is blowing, moving around, so they got there. There are, you know, two people in there so one's able to hold on. The other guy climbed over on an extended rope, you know. So he's, he can't be, he can't be hurt. So he climbs over, talks to dave, they get that, they open the hatch and then he climbs down in there with dave. He, he lured the horse down to him and and dave was like I don't know, I don't know how to put this on. I mean it's a harness, I get it, but I don't know it's, it is a little more complicated than the ones they wear, many more adjustments, and all that because you're designed to be hanging in it, not wearing it, eight hour day and never using it.
Speaker 2:So that guy climbed down in there with him and that was a big conversation we had before we did any of that Way. Back down on the ground was like how are they sure that thing can't move? Because our fear is our guy climbs down in there and that thing drops, it's going to. He's tied to that man basket, it's going to rip him through that opening at the top. So like we hit, I mean we had to really believe the crane, the elevator people when they said, yeah, it's not going to move. Okay, at some point you just got to go. Hey, yeah, it's not gonna move. Okay, at some point you just gotta go. Hey, that it's your. You know, it's your thing. You know we at this point we trust you. We've asked you 10 different ways and you keep saying the same thing. I guess we're gonna have to go with it. So go ahead, yeah, keep going. So he.
Speaker 2:So he climbed down in there with dave the rescuer, helped him get it all, get it all set up, and then you know they have. I wasn't there, so I wasn down in there with Dave the rescuer, helped him get it all, get it all set up, and then you know they have. I wasn't there, so I wasn't in there. But you know the conversation like, here's how this is going to work, we're going to be fine and from my conversation with Dave by the radio calm as a cucumber, no big deal, just normal guy like no big deal.
Speaker 2:So they he climbed out and then climbed into the man basket, as he, you know, came out and got on the roof with a little railing around it. Then they tightened up the strap between them so there was no fall factor and then he just climbed into the basket. Dave's good, they have him clipped onto the railing, just like you're supposed to, and then they stretch the piece out, give it to our, our rescuer, and then he climbs out on the roof and then moves into the, into the man basket kind of thing. So it was all. Once Dave was set, the harness is on him. Without it was, it was over pretty fast, a little lower into the ground yeah and any.
Speaker 1:Uh. So, and once he was on the ground, maybe a little medical surveillance, or were you guys just like I'm gonna be totally honest here.
Speaker 2:I was 300 feet, but I asked they took him in the medic unit, talked to him, checked him out.
Speaker 1:He was fine all right, he had no like cold anything, he was fine so you guys hot wash this afterwards or any lessons learned after or anything that you guys talked about, that you would do different next time.
Speaker 2:Uh yeah. So, um, on the rope side, our plan, um, we, we learned some things. So we didn't carry everything with us. We had just a little teeny, weeny rope that we lowered, a Caribbean with a heavy Caribbean lowered it to the ground and what we realized was, as we were lowering that down, it was going way far away, like it was getting blown by the wind a lot.
Speaker 2:So it's like we can't, really we can't, just lower a guy over the edge here because he's going to get blown away. We have no way to get him back to the elevator, like so, um, the elevator came up, it's, it's normal operation. It comes up through the ring we were on and then it unlatches a door that opens, and then you just walk in that ring, go inside, do your thing, um, so we walked around the ring, we were able to look at the other side of that cage and figure out how that door was released. So, for, you know, basically we were going to, with you know, lobster, claws on, all tied off, lift him up so he, a guy could reach over and push this little lever, and then we were going to be able to open the doors. So then our plan was to use when we were going to, if you know, if we ended up having to do it, we were going to lower a guy down because right on the track, that, that, that the that the elevator rides on, so that they can hold on to that track as we lower them down so they don't get blown away, because if they got, you know they're not going to fall, but if they get blown 30 feet away I don't know how we get them back. It's like wait for the wind to stop, I guess Hopefully he swings back in. So we were going to do that, have him be able to grab onto something as we lowered him so that he would be right on top of that elevator when he got down there. And then the process would have been harness on Dave, all that stuff. And then because of that, we've had a couple you know conversations of either a track line that would move Dave away from the elevator so that rope would not rub on it, and then down to the ground, or have the rescuer just sit on the top and just kind of keep the rope away from the elevator, lower Dave down, bring the rope back up, haul our guy back up, and then we climbed down the ladder. But none of that. None of that happened because the crane worked so well but it was safe, it was better, it was faster, it was safer for everybody. I mean, none of that happened because the crane worked so well but it was safer, it was better, it was faster, it was safer for everybody. I mean it's the way to go.
Speaker 2:So the hot wash yeah, we all met afterwards, you know, the rope. People explained, like what our plan was, because we really didn't have a plan until we got up there to see you know what was there, how it would all work out. And then the crane people explained all the stuff they did. Any issues? There really weren't any issues. It worked out, you know, pretty as they had envisioned it would. It worked out pretty well.
Speaker 2:And then our thing you know we were secretly hoping that the crane wouldn't make it there but so we could do a road rescue. But it made it there. It worked out fine. We climbed. I really I climbed up 300 feet. So instead of staying on the ground watching it like that, I could lean on a railing and watch it like that. So the big rescue happened. But I mean it worked out, it was. I mean it was kind of like really nice, no big to do. All the ideas worked out as planning on minor adjustments, and then um, and then they did. It worked out right and dave's fine, we're fine, everybody's fine, and 300 feet back down, ain't that big a deal no, I mean that we were.
Speaker 3:The reason that we're blue card, you know all hazards management. The reason that we're doing this you know eight functions of command for technical rescue is, you know, really, these incidents and that, uh, the local jurisdiction if they, when they don't have that capability, you know what, what can they do and what you know can't they do. And, john, you kind of mentioned it, if this was a big rescue, like guy was hurt or something, what could you or would you have done different? You know, sometimes that triggers the local jurisdiction if they don't have the capability to, you know, do some things that maybe they shouldn't. So that's what's behind. You know the eight functions of command for technical rescue that the group's been working on of what that really looks like. Working on of what that really looks like and it's really application of the system. But how do you apply the system to various technical rescue incidents? And you know, I think, what we learned today from you know, some of the stuff Grant talked about. You know, working with the local jurisdiction, working with the subject matter experts that are there on site talking to people who are familiar with the crane, uh, resource. You know, command function one deployment like what? Who's here, what can we do with them? And I always make the extreme. You know if, if you're an engine, you can't flow elevated water. So if you need a ladder, if you need to do that, you need a ladder. If you need to do that, you need a ladder truck. Well, different people have different skill sets, right? So you know understanding, you know all of that and knowing when you're at your capacity or when you need, when you need support. So really all of that lines back up to the. You know the whole system.
Speaker 3:And then you know really the strategic decision making model, talking about the critical factors which clearly they evaluated all of that. You know kind of inside and out, made some decisions about risk management, like, yeah, we do got some time because we've gathered information that the company said this thing's not going to fall, the guy seems to be stable. You were able to talk to him. You know all of those parts and pieces, developed an incident action plan, not one, not not a. This is what we do every time. But you know, had, you know they already called the crane we're gonna hopefully that works or, in your case, maybe hopefully it doesn't work, but uh, and then having the backup for the, you know the rope system in place. So it it's, it's all the model we talk about, right? So you know it was a slow, rolling offensive strategy with, you know, two incident action plans a primary and a backup plan of what we're going to do.
Speaker 3:You know differently, and I'm sure there were people there thinking about like, well, if this doesn't work, what, like what? What's the next step? And then you know, having those people thinking about what is what's standing between us solving the problem. So some of the stuff Grant talked about, like the wind and the person getting blown, you know, further away from where the basket is and the basket blowing around, and you know the not opening the door on the side and all of those things, right, that's, that's all, really. I mean it's decision making, right, really, uh, I mean it's decision making right based off the critical, based off those critical factors that you all and, uh, you all identified, along with the people on site. And you know local, the local fire department.
Speaker 3:So I mean nice success story with a technical rescue event.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it was, um, it it was really, and I I can't it's. I've been at a lot of events like this where they're out in the open and there's a lot more influences played, and this was to me it seemed like it was just totally different because it was just a closed site. These people were here. We're going to fix this, we're going to take care of it. There wasn't just a lot of outside influences trying to pressure. You know, the media, this and I'm not against the media, just you know. Just, they want this information, they want this. I mean just all those things weren't there and it was.
Speaker 2:It was really nice to just have the people you needed to talk to there, be able to just walk up and talk to them, have a conversation, make a plan, make a backup plan. Everybody, you good with this. You shoot holes in our plan. We'll shoot holes in your plan. We're good. I think we're good at that. Okay, what do you guys need to climb? Start climbing, you guys. The truck should be here in a little bit. Get the stuff you need to make that man basket work with a step off and go down in a hole operation different than what they normally do from a man basket Get that ready to go, and once that showed up it clicked right into place. It worked really well.
Speaker 1:All right, you guys got time for a timeless tactical truth.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:All right, let's do it. Timeless tactical truth from Alan Bernasini. You can get the deck of cards at bshiftercom, and today we're looking at the 10 of clubs. And this one says command officers generally establish and continue command inside their regular response vehicle as a standard practice. Now things get real drawn out. You have more players involved. You know, is it possible to stay inside an SUV for this long? Should we? Because we don't have an IDLH? Is it okay to get out? What do you guys think about that? And really, you know, josh, maybe from you, what's the blue card answer? And Grant, what's the practical answer with you as a technical rescue team member command as a technical rescue team member.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll kick it off as a as a you know the blue card answer is um, you know we, we stay in the vehicle. And we know why we stay in the vehicle because we want to be protected from you know the outside elements. Good place to think you can write stuff down. You got a lot of reference point stuff there. Uh, everybody else, they're keeping everybody else away from you, like they. They're not going to come there when I'm on the fire. Well, they do a couple of times and then they just don't come back right after after a while. But it's different.
Speaker 3:And I'm listening to the radio. I'm I'm an active listener, right, a primary piece of being an incident commanders, I'm an active listener. I don't want to miss any radio traffic. I should never miss any radio traffic. And then you know, in this type of an incident there's going to be a command team and it's going to also have, you know, a lot of people from anytime you're on a commercial site, you're going to have that subject matter expert influence, right. So at a hazmat incident, I might have the plan operator and some chemists and I want them right there with me. Well, they're not all going to pile in the car. So ideally, you know, in time, if I could have a command van there, if you could have a command van there, that's really good.
Speaker 3:But I've been to plenty of incidents where the at a fixed location, where is the command team? If you will, fire department response team, subject matter experts, uh, maybe police, you know, end up in a corporate office space that is actually designed to be a command location, on, like a chemical site, or sometimes in these other industrial, like very large industrial facilities like this, you know that are, you know, three, four, five, 600 acres. You know, oftentimes they have a place there. So it's almost like its own little. It's almost like its own little emergency operations center and command can, you know, operate from that point.
Speaker 3:But really the key to it is is whoever that team makes up. That team, you know, just has to stay together. Right, we just have to put a leash on everybody. It's hooked to the center pole and nobody, nobody leaves this site. Um, but the listening is still important, but the thinking and networking and running stuff up against each other is, you know, oftentimes even more important. And this isn't, these aren't fast paced events, these are, you know oftentimes long. You know drawn out, drawn out pieces, so you know Grant can talk to like what did it look like there?
Speaker 2:Well, the I think the other thing is you just like that we talked about the crane like the fire department or techno rescue team, somebody says, yeah, I think we could do this with a man basking with a crane. Well, the fire department is not going to call the crane company because the crane company is going to want to know who's paying for this. No-transcript, we'll send it out there. We'll figure it all out later. Most likely they're going to want to know who's paying for this, right? So just, everybody's kind of got to be where you can have that conversation. The fire department or rescue team has their conversation. Then the managers of that go to the next group and say, ok, here's our plan, you need to be a part of this, right? So the Duke guy may not need to be in the conversation we have with the fire guys, right?
Speaker 2:The tech rescue has the fire side saying here's what we think will work, here's what we think will be best, not best, that kind of thing. And then, okay, they parse it out and they go, okay, and then he moves down to all, right, now he's going to go to that group. So they all need to be able to be together and kind of be able to converse back and forth easily Because I mean, there's, that's their guy right, in the end it's their guy up in there. And you know, we don't want them to again. We want them to know everything we're doing and then when we need stuff, we go to them and say, here's what we need, you know, and like they go, okay, we'll get it. Okay, good enough, thanks.
Speaker 1:Grant, thank you very much for being here today and sharing this incident with us with us, I mean, you are a great storyteller and your experience is so valuable to share with all the listeners here on B-Shifter, so thank you very much for sharing that incident. I'm glad the outcome was good, everyone was safe, no one got hurt and certainly you guys did it in a safe way and managed it very well. So thank you for sharing that with us today.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It was great being here. I got my steps in that day.
Speaker 1:All right. All right, josh and Grant. Thank you very much. Thanks for being on the episode today and we'll talk to you soon. Thanks, john. Thanks for listening to B Shifter.