B Shifter
Fire command and leadership conversations for B Shifters and beyond (all shifts welcome)!
B Shifter
The Three Deep Model
This episode features Josh Blum and John Vance.
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This episode was recorded September 5, 2024
Welcome everyone to the B-Shifter podcast. You have Jon Vance here today, along with Josh Boone, and today's date is September 9th 2024. How are you doing, josh?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great, just getting ramped up for the conference right around the corner now, 21 days away, or whatever.
Speaker 1:So we're all ready. October 3rd and 4th in Sharonville. Still opportunity for people to get registered. We have HazardZoneBCcom. Go there, get signed up. I know we are very excited, not only for all the classes that we have, but this is our annual get-together. It's nice to be able to see all the blue card users out there find out what they're doing, catch up with how they are doing. Departments are always in a state of, as you say, fixing themselves and evolution, so it's always a great opportunity to check in with everybody. So we are really looking forward to that. It's going to be a really great learning event right outside Cincinnati, Ohio and Sharonville. Any conference news that you have for us. I know people are kind of in and out of some of the workshops. Do we have any workshop seats left at all?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think we had one or two seats pop up in the CERT lab. So that's September 30th, october 1st and 2nd, the CERT lab piece being taught by lead blue card instructors, and I think we have maybe three seats that popped open from the May Day Management Workshop, which is October 1st and 2nd, right on the front end of the conference. So, yeah, that'll be. We're super excited about the, you know, pre-conference workshops in 2025. We're going to push out, you know, several other pre-conference workshops. If people are traveling, you know, to Cincinnati, it's going to be in Cincinnati again in 2025, around the same dates. We'll announce that at the conference this year, but we'll have some other pre-conference workshops. So, looking forward to that. And then I'm super excited that, you know, at the conference. So a year ago at the conference, you know, we talked a lot about what's on the horizon, what we're doing, where we've been, where we're going, and every day, as I look at what we've done, accomplished over this last year, and the stuff that we're going to be rolling out silverback leadership module Amazing, it's fantastic. There's nothing else like that. So you know the intro to silverback leadership and customer service from the inside out and you know all of those pieces. I'm super excited that's going to be rolling out actually just before the conference so that, you know, folks get an opportunity to look at it and they can talk to Nick and Terry about. You know what that? What that's all about, uh, chris Stewart and Grant, uh, last year kind of did a little rollout of the uh TRT eight functions of command for TRT response and, just like the hazmat program, it's not a um, it's not for the hazmat technician or the rescue guy, it's for the, the engine officer riding in the front seat of an engine that doesn't have any. You know technical experience with that. Basically, just get an incident going, make good decisions, make sure that we do all we can with what we have, but, uh, example, that we don't jump in the trench just because we feel emotionally like we have to, or we jump in the river or we, you know, jump in the ice covered lake, and the list goes on, Right. So, um, that's really that's, that's super exciting. Uh, the ARF module you know that that has come to come to life. So, uh, that's going to be rolling out at the conference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean a whole lot of things going on, the after action reporting thing. Countless hours over really the last three years, I guess, have gone into that and that's probably the thing that I'm most excited about the after action reporting system and the ability for that tool, when used properly, to really help fire departments and self-improvement. So identification of areas that we can do better and then also identification of areas that we're doing well, so that we reinforce what we do well and that we can use that tool to spread the message across our whole organization, because you know there's only one shift and one company that experienced. You know what that company experienced, but we can all learn and we should all learn from you know what we do well and you know what we can do better. Last week we talked it a little bit.
Speaker 2:I was super excited because college football is back and as I watch reviews this week of college football and I hear coaches say, yeah, we did pretty well, but I'm disappointed and we can do so much better and we're going to focus on that this week. And I mean when you blow a team out 63 to nothing and you know everybody did well and they played well, obviously there was still plenty of area for improvement, right, so and it was brought up, I mean on national news the guy said, yeah, we did, we did good, but we can do so much better. And I identified a whole bunch of things that we're going to do better, things that we're going to do better. So, you know, organizationally providing service to the community, every day we should be looking at what can we do better. And so, as I review the after action reporting stuff and we're starting to roll that out, it really ties right back to the silverback leadership piece like that customer service from the inside out and that whole approach of performance management. It matters, right.
Speaker 2:I mean, we're a profession and I don't talk about profession whether you get paid to this job or not. We're a profession to provide a service to the community, for the community, and that's why we exist. So we should always be looking to do better. And so there's a whole lot of stuff, you know, going on and going to be rolling out and we've made a whole lot of progress over this last year with the program and the system and new parts and pieces. And most all of that comes from, you know, input and feedback from our end user, the customer, because we listen to what they have to say. I mean we don't have all the answers. We know we don't have all the answers. Nobody has all the answers.
Speaker 2:When they think they have all the answers. That's when we you know, that's when you start to fail right?
Speaker 1:So yeah, I'm super super excited One of the things about the ARF not the ARF module, but the After Action Review module coming up. On October 17th we're going to have a webinar where we give an intro on how that module works, talking about some of the tools, how it's used for a continuous improvement tool. So first time we're letting everyone know about it here on the podcast. Write it down October 17th you will get. All Blue Card users will get an invitation in their email very shortly to join that webinar on October 17th where we're talking about that module. And then in the coming weeks we'll also have a podcast on the ARF module. Chris Stewart and Jeff King will join us for that and we're rolling that out at the conference this year. But we'll also give folks who can't make it to the conference this year an opportunity to learn more about it. Whether you're a municipal airport, you've got aircraft flying overhead. Whatever the case, this is really a module that's useful for every fire department that could potentially deal with an aviation emergency. So we'll talk to the creators who were part of that project and get the lowdown on how that module works in the coming weeks as well. So we're very excited about all of that. Of course, if you're at the conference, you're going to hear about all of it. So that's kind of our kickoff for all the new stuff that happens with Blue Card is at our annual conference and we really look forward to seeing folks there.
Speaker 1:Hazardzonepccom If you want to get registered, there is still time to do that. Last week we were back on the road after a little Labor Day break. We were in Minot, north Dakota, at the Air Force Base there helping them with the certification lab. If you're a new department and you need some help with the certification lab, you can always contact Josh and he can get you some information on how the Blue Card lead instructors can help you with that. Then, coming up this week, we're busy again, aren't we?
Speaker 2:can help you with that. Then coming up this week, uh, we're busy again, aren't we? Oh, yeah, we're we this week we're in back in phoenix kicking it off after the. We're not going to be in phoenix in july and august, everyone would melt. But uh, I just seen you. I just seen I guess it was last week, I saw it that uh set the record 100 and something days above 100 degrees. It was first time in a long time. Last record was like 70 something days, whatever. But yeah, so we're back in Phoenix over full, I think, 13 or 14 students in that trainer. That's kicking off. And then we have a huge project we're doing in the Northeast with Norfolk County Massachusetts, the Northeast, uh, with Norfolk County Massachusetts. So they're, uh, they're putting, uh, I don't know a little over 50 instructors online and they're putting a thousand users online. Uh did a county-wide AFG grant and got funded for, um, I think, 20 something fire departments. So, uh, we're, we're, we're kicking off that project and then we're going to be there for, I think, three weeks in a row. And then we got the conference and then we're kicking off that project and then we're going to be there for, I think, three weeks in a row, and then we got the conference and then we're back there for two weeks and then we just picked up some other agencies around there that are, you know, latching on to the system. So I want to go ahead and throw it out at this point to everybody, based off the work that, the work we got going on, so we have no room to do anything else really for the rest of 2024.
Speaker 2:We have the. We got the six trainers for 2025, the first six in Phoenix on the schedule, and then we got a few other classes on there. But the biggest thing is is, if you're looking for a trainer right after the first of the year, you know, make sure you get in touch with me, because our schedule is going to start, you know, filling up pretty quickly. And then the workshops. So we can only do probably five big box workshops a year. So that's kind of a first come, first serve basis. So if you want a big box workshop in 2025, reach out to me and I'll get you. I'll get you on the list. Um, and we're going to try to do those regionally. Example, we're probably not going to do one in Michigan and then turn around and do one in Northern Ohio.
Speaker 2:Uh, because those are open to 40 students and the key to that program is having Shane Ray there for the first day talking about, from the National Fire Sprinkler Association perspective of best practice, real incidents, when things go right and when things go wrong. And then the same thing with the critical thinking class, the mandate management class, the vision ops, any of the workshop stuff. If you're looking to do something with that in 2025, even if you don't have dates or you're not confirmed yet or you're waiting on your budget to get approved, just reach out to me and we can kind of talk about it. I can put it on our radar anyway Because, just like this year, many of you wanted classes in this fourth quarter and it was too late. So the sooner we get it booked for you, the better. Obviously, the better. The sooner you get a hold of us, the better chance we have of being able to get it booked up for you.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, kicking off this week is great.
Speaker 2:And then, when you look at our calendar, I think we have in September nine. I think we're doing nine events in September. And then the conference, you know, September 30th through the 4th and then October looks exactly the same. And then I think we got five events in November, and when you add the holiday weekend to that, that makes it tight. And then in December I think we got six classes going train the trainers and workshops is going to train the trainers and workshops, and so when you take December holidays and put it into it, it really we're pushing a lot into a short period of time, but we're super excited about it. We love being on the road, we love networking with fire departments, learning from you all and continuing to provide a program. As I always do say, we always live in a state of fixing ourselves, so your input matters and when we're out there on the road, we hear your input and that's what drives us to continue to develop new curriculum and to refine what we have we love getting on the road.
Speaker 1:You know josh hears it from me because I get so excited when we meet new departments and we're hanging out and seeing how they operate. As a chief I used to work with would say when you've seen one fire department, you've seen one fire department. Everybody's just a little different either with the way they deploy, the way they train, what the culture is, the way their trucks are set up, the way their firefighters dress, everything. So it's always great for us to get out and see everyone and learn more about what fire departments are doing. So contact Josh, because he's absolutely right, it is a limited capacity that we have. We have a lot of capacity but for sake of consistency, we like to send out a cadre of lead instructors that are consistent. So we only have so much capacity to be able to get that consistent message out there. So we can do a lot at once, but there is a limit to that as well. So to get in early and get your reservations for whatever it is whether it's a train, the trainer or workshop, or you want us to come to your community to do that contact Josh, but get that set up sooner than later, because it is getting harder and harder to get the dates that you might want if you don't get it ahead of time.
Speaker 1:Today we are going to talk about the 3D model and Chief Brunicini would talk about the tactical reserve that is needed, and this was particularly evident after the Tarver incident. It began to grow. So let's explain to folks. First of all, josh, what the 3D model is, especially, you know, a little primer for either people who are not BlueCard users or new to BlueCard. What is 3DEEP and why is it important?
Speaker 2:It really comes down to a deployment piece and deployment and resource. So I like to say how deep is your bench? Because you don't always win with, you know, that initial wave of resources and then you always need to have resource available to address, you know, the unknown or those things that come up at an incident. And an example of that anybody who listened to the podcast that we did from clay fire territory the value of having a company right there on deck when they found a victim. So that's that example of how deep is your bench. Well, something changed, or we not changed. We found a victim, so we were doing fire attack, we're doing search and now I need a company to support that. So that on-deck company, which brings it to the two deep piece, supports the initial wave of task level. So that on-deck company was in place right at the entry point and was able to deploy right away to support that initial task level operation of work that was taking place. So what it really lets us do is keep pace with the critical factors that we're arriving to and evaluating. So you know, so many times you see a response of you know 17 to 21 people and you know everywhere I go and talk to people about it. It's like well, you're, why was? Why did you have 15 people inside of a 1500 square foot house? They're like I don't know. Every single time you get in, fine, and then you can't get out because they're piled up on you. Bad belt air packs are banging together. We're, you know, doing stuff we don't need to do because firemen are going to find something to do. Well, in our system, where it really starts is we deploy resource, the task level, the first level, based off the critical fire ground factors to complete objectives. So our objectives are we're the fire department, we're going to put the fire out and we're going to do search when applicable you know places with beds and places of gathering and so on and then we are going to do property conservation. So, again, we deploy that task level based off the critical factors that we identify to solve the problem. And how many resources is it going to take to solve that problem? So I'll just keep it simple. You're going to a 1,500 square foot slab, one story house. Well, how many companies do you really need to have inside there? You're sending seven, but you don't need seven inside there. So I need maybe I need a fire attack team. Maybe I need a backup team. I'm going to sign up some company to search and I got a company on deck so I'm using four of the seven. Initially right. So I have, I have companies in there doing doing work addressing the critical fire ground factors and then I have a company outside on deck, or maybe two companies outside on deck that are ready to go for whatever the next assignment could be. Or the first job of on deck is you are the rapid intervention team, you're right there, ready to go, and we use that on deck thing following the Brett Tarver piece, what they found out in Phoenix, that that keeps people much more engaged when they know that they're the next one. So you know the task level.
Speaker 2:I think, john, is pretty simple what I talked about, just to focus on addressing the critical fire ground factors. We deploy the initial wave to address critical fire ground factors. We don't deploy less and we don't deploy more. We deploy the resources that we need and if we don't have the resources to solve the problem in that initial wave, then as very well-respected FDNY chief, vinnie Dunn, has said over and over again, if you don't have the resources to address the problem, then you're in the wrong strategy, said over and over again. If you don't have the resources to address the problem, then you're in the wrong strategy. So the front end is pretty simple right, identify the critical fire ground factors. What's standing in the way of me solving these critical fire ground factors? What resources do I have to work through and solve that problem? And then that puts me to that next wave. So do you want to break that down a little bit more, john, talk about the task level before we jump to on deck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's talk about the working crews and how their replacement happens and how we forecast ahead for the needs that we have in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I guess at the task level every company has a company officer and we call it the company officer because they're responsible for their company and that they can only manage and do the work that they can really realistic do, realistically do. So you know, accountability, air management, working through, solving the problems, having that, you know, 16 foot circle, if you will, around them using a thermal imaging camera. Back to the air management piece. We have to be doing air management. That's our tank of gas. Once you're out of air and you're in the IDLH, it's over right. It's like running out of gas on the side of the road. You have to forecast that and part of that forecasting does line up to the tactical and strategic level. So when those companies are in there doing work, the company officer is managing each of those companies. So in our system we would not make an interior company officer or somebody on the interior a division in the IDLH. The company officer is responsible for their company and then they would report to somebody who's, you know, a division boss at an entry point. When it comes to the work and recycling, you know we talk about the communications piece. So why do we put people on deck? So on deck exists for the purpose of they're there, one first and foremost to be the rapid intervention team, right there, ready to go with the appropriate equipment, engaged in the incident, knowing that they're getting the next assignment. Listening to the radio, because, whether it comes out and they say priority traffic, we need another company to assist with fire control for a fire in the attic, that company that's on deck is going to get that assignment. So they're a little bit more engaged. Or they say mayday, mayday, mayday, we've had a ceiling collapse, we need somebody with some heavier cutters and air trans fill bag. They're right there at the entry point at that fire attack location, ready to go. So that's on deck. So an on deck isn't one company, right?
Speaker 2:So I think there's some confusion out there with some people on that. So again, how much work has taken place? How far are they into the building? What is the cycle going to look like? Am I at a house where we're working 20 feet through the door, or am I at a 300 by 300 building, like we were a few weeks ago at a Goodwill distribution center? And I think I was. I was Delta at the fire attack location and I think I went through.
Speaker 2:I think I went through like 12 companies rotating in and out, because we were 150 feet inside of a building that had a sprinkler-controlled fire and had three or four tractor-trailer loads worth of clothes in there that had to be at some point, had to be overhauled right. So it wasn't like high-rack storage, it was bins of clothing that had to be, you know, moved around. The sprinkler system totally controlled it. But when it came to the air management part, it was the company officer's job to make sure that you get out, you and your crew get out of that building before your low air alarm starts going off. So if I have two companies in there working, then I need at least well, really what I need is four companies on deck outside, because I need two companies to replace the two companies that are working. And then I need I still need to have that on deck in place because the company that's coming out is going to recycle and it doesn't happen in 30 seconds.
Speaker 2:So that's that, that's that next, that's that next level of the three deep deployment. So I kind of I kind of veered into it a little bit. So we talk a little bit about in the division ops class, we talk about two deep deployment, which is really just a part of the three deep deployment, right? So the two deep deployment is I'm Delta at an incident running that division and, john, example, you're my support officer. The two deep means we're managing those companies that went through that attack location, that are on the inside, and then we're also taking care of and making sure that we have the resources available to us to keep pace based on our incident action plan and the critical factors that we need to address in our geographic area. So it's our job to maintain that two deep deployment. So if I'm going to recycle companies, that's that two deep part of it.
Speaker 2:As soon as I'm going to rehab somebody, then as a division I would need to notify command that I likely need more resources and I need to be specific about that. So I wouldn't key up the radio and say I need more companies. So I wouldn't key up the radio and say I need more companies, delta to command, I need two companies, three, whatever you need specifically, right? So really you're giving out, you know, a can report. So what's going on there now? What progress have you made? And here's my need, and I'm sending engine five and engine seven back to you to go to rehab, so that when we talk about too deep deployment, that's what that piece of it is, and we would set up that on deck position anywhere that we have a fire attack location.
Speaker 2:So ideally, right, we would have, if I have two attack positions and I have on deck in two different locations and on deck first and goes back to the rapid intervention team, right, so they're right there, ready to go with the proper equipment, ready to make entry at this very moment. Because, not to go down the rabbit hole, but rapid intervention of I'm putting up ground ladders, cutting window bars off, doing a 360, shutting off the gas, doing all those other things. There ain't nothing rapid about that. I'm not saying that those things don't need to happen. Those are called. That's called support work that I would assign a company that has the capability to do that work to do if that work needs to be done. Cause I want my rapid intervention team right there at the entry point, ready to go right now to work through and solve the problem, because they're fully engaged in what's going on at that entry point. I'm not going to use them on the Charlie side, I'm not going to use them anywhere else, I'm going to use them right there. If I have an attack position somewhere else, they would have their own on deck piece there. If I have an attack position somewhere else, they would have their own on deck piece there.
Speaker 2:So this whole thing comes down to what's your depth chart? Look like that's the three deep deployment thing. I got companies working, I got companies on deck. And then the last piece of it is the companies are still level one staged or at a forward staging location that they're ready to be assigned maybe into a geographic area. So they're working for. And still on the strategic ICs worksheet, we know that they're there, but they're there to be used when I need that additional resource. There's nothing worse than being a division boss or strategic IC when you have that feeling of I sure wish I had companies right now, because I'm losing ground on this because I don't have anybody to assign to do the work.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, going back to the on-deck companies, because it's a question I get and I'm interested in how you answer this one when do you know, as the IC on the very early stages of an incident, when it's time to start on decking companies? At what point do you do that? And it's dynamic. So I want to hear your answer and I'll maybe share with you what I usually say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we assign on deck after we've addressed those critical fire ground factors that we've identified and that we're, we have the companies to do the work to address those initial objectives. Right. So our initial two primary search and fire control. So I'm addressing those pieces and then then, then, and only then, is when I start assigning on deck. So we don't do the. The second company goes on deck, so we don't do. The second company goes on deck, we don't do. The third company ends up on deck.
Speaker 2:We assign on deck as a tactical reserve and it's called a tactical reserve because they're there to support the work that is taking place. The initial wave of work that that first company got there and, based off of their size up, identified again the critical factors. What can I do about these critical factors? What's standing in the way of me solving these critical factors and what resources do I have to solve the problem? And then, and only then, do we end up in the position where we're putting companies on deck Because the number one way to make things better for us is to put the fire out.
Speaker 2:The number one way to make things better for us is to put the fire out, the number one way to make things better altogether on the fire ground is assign the people to do the work to put the fire out and to find anybody who might be a victim inside of these buildings. So on deck comes again. It's called the tactical reserve for a reason, because it's only going there once the work is completed by the ones that are being initially assigned at the task level to do the initial wave of work.
Speaker 1:We found that once we started prescribing really who was on deck two that we would keep more companies level one stage, on an average four to five additional companies, which really meant that we were going an alarm level over mostly what we needed on the scene. Now we would still keep those companies in level one as a tactical reserve in case we needed them, but we weren't committing them to the scene. So if a second incident came up and you know talking about contamination, why would you needlessly contaminate crews if you didn't need to? So the other thing I see that happens is a new incident commander a lot of times will load up that division without getting a CAN report. So they keep just you know somebody level ones, engine five go on deck alpha. Engine six go on deck alpha and they start stacking companies without really getting a CAN report which includes the needs. Do you really need those companies there? Do you see that happening a lot with the new ICs, like I do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think when we're not comfortable with the resources not doing anything, we do that right. Well, somebody went level one, I have to give them something to do, and that's when we start piling it up. And that's when you end up in that position of okay, well, I blew through all these front-end resources, a lot of them doing something that didn't need to be done, that work didn't need to happen or there was no work for them to really do. They just got deployed somewhere and then you don't have a tactical reserve in place. So, like you said, john, you end up calling second and third alarm assignments when you had plenty of resource really there to work through and solve the problem. If we assigned resource based off of the critical factors and the problem, instead of well, I got seven companies coming and they're all going to do something and we know we don't need that. But I think when you don't have a system in place and you're not comfortable managing the event, that's the position we end up in. And I'm not in any way shape or form saying that there's not plenty of instances and cases where you can assign right off the cuff five, six, seven, eight companies, right, I mean, in the blue card world.
Speaker 2:We can talk about that three-story apartment building and I'll put it right out there that first due company officer, if the battalion didn't show up, could assign five companies. So they're going to the first floor, company's going to the second floor, another company's going to the third floor. The fire's into the attic. So I got exposure and exposure. So I got five companies assigned task level work inside and I'm going to have probably two companies, at least two companies on deck. And we didn't even talk about ladder four, priority traffic. We found a victim on the third floor. We're coming out and we're going to need another company to assist us in getting them down the steps Right.
Speaker 2:So I mean, but that's that, looking at the work that needs to happen and where I'm going to use the resource, that incident, much different than engine one. I'm on the scene of a medium two-story residential. I got a working fire stretching along to the alpha side, primary search, fire control. We got a water supply. We're going to be in the offensive strategy. Go ahead and hold the assignment. I'll be main street command, command, all units. 360 is complete. This is a kitchen fire. We're going to be redeploying to the Charlie side, remaining in the offensive strategy, going to continue to hold the assignment accountabilities at engine one Totally different incident than the apartments, right?
Speaker 2:So when I identify those critical factors, I'm going to get a line or two maybe into place, I'm going to make sure I'm getting searches done and then I'm going to get on deck. So I got including on deck. I got like four companies assigned Because in about 32 seconds Engine 1 is either going to say we have fire control in the kitchen or they're going to say we got a fire into the attic and then they got a company on deck that they can assign to go to that next piece or they have another line maybe deployed behind them that they could get to that location where the fire is going to. So, yeah, we only assign the resource based off of again, off of the critical fire ground factors. And you know I laugh out loud about it every time somebody says it.
Speaker 2:And if I ask somebody, why did you assign all those companies? Well, I assigned them because I need them to like me. Well, what are you doing that you need them to like you? They should like you because you gave them a real assignment. I mean, in my entire career there's nothing I disliked more than being fourth, fifth or sixth due and getting assigned to do something when it should have been solved with, or it was solved with, three companies. Right, it's like get me out of here so I can go to something else and I don't know, I think. I think there's just a comfort level, you know thing there, with people when they over assign based off the work that needs to happen, over a sign based off the work that needs to happen.
Speaker 1:We were talking about that even from a customer service aspect and more damage being done and holes getting cut in roofs because and I heard this from a fire chief my guys have a scratch they need to itch and I'm just going to let them do that. Work for practice. And it's like why these are real houses that we're talking about and real, real fire victims. Let's not make a more of a victim from us loading the property up with people who are just looking for something to do and the actions really aren't meeting the needs of the incident. So switching gears over to level one, because people who don't understand it clearly misrepresent it.
Speaker 1:Bruno used to say if you don't have a staging system, you don't have a command system. So level one is really the entry, the gate to get into the incident, so to speak. Sooner or later you end up keeping companies level one. Sooner or later you end up keeping companies level one. But at the beginning of the incident, that level one process and you've said it before, josh it's like the wheels aren't even stopping on the truck. They're getting assignments so quickly when there's critical needs to be had. So explain to the new user or folks who need a refresher. What does level one look like at the beginning, the middle and the end of the?
Speaker 2:look like at the beginning, the middle and the end of the incident or toward the end of the incident. Yeah, so level one at the beginning is so the first due company officer got there, gave a size up, follow up report, established command, that starts level one staging. So within your own system you know you could have first engine and truck and battalion chief go directly to the scene, or first engine and rescue and battalion chief, or first engine and medic or whatever you decide, right On your front end for that initial, very initial wave of operation. So medic and engine work together to create one company, whatever that looks like. So once that first new company officer establishes command, level one staging goes into place. So what that means is level one staging for every month, everyone. Means don't go past the last street or access to bring you in, maybe a different way.
Speaker 2:So anybody who's listening to this knows you've been to plenty of well I hope you've been to some incidents where it's like this worked out really nice for me being second due because I was able to come in another way and get into a better position as an engine or a truck to to get proper placement. So level one don't don't put your bumper on the back end of the first due company period, right, that's a whole thing. So, level one staging don't go past your last means of egress to come in potentially another way For engines. Don't go past a water supply, right. So level one staged on a water supply. So there you are. Maybe communicating that, right? So that's a little piece that you can say level one staged at third and main so that everybody knows oh, you're there, so a later arriving engine that might cause them to come a different direction of travel. Level one staged is don't go past, for sure, your last means to come in to this incident a different way. And that and that level one staging piece on the front end, literally at a working incident where you want to be there because there's going to be work to do, your wheels probably don't stop turning. And I guess when I say that that that only happens when your people are using a system where size up plus three.
Speaker 2:So the initial company officer got there, did a size up, did a 360, and then in their mind knew what the next three assignments needed to be to work through and solve the problem. Not based off of, well, some piece of paper says this is what we do with them, but this is what I need to do with the companies to solve the problem based off the critical factors that I've identified. So I'm command and ladder one goes level one. As soon as they go level one I'm not even contacting them back right Because they're ready for the assignment. I'm not even contacting them back right Because they're ready for the assignment. Command to Ladder 1, I need you to position right behind Engine 1, get a line off of Engine 1, go to the second floor primary search fire control and they know that that's their assignment, right? I mean, they got communicated that assignment. They know how they're going to come into the incident. They probably have a pretty good idea if you train together and you have a system of what it's going to be, based off of what the initial radio report was, of what the assignment is likely going to be.
Speaker 2:Company officer assigns that first three, four, sometimes five companies to do work and you know five is getting to the end of their capacity for sure to be able to assign people to do work. But we've used plenty of audio where a battalion is delayed and that first arriving IC did a fantastic job and assigned five companies in a working incident with a victim and maintain being the company officer inside the building with their initial crew and still gave those assignments. So I think that's the power in the system of we have a standard, we train on that standard and then we refine, based off of things that that worked and things that didn't work, so that that's the front end piece. I mean, your wheels don't stop turning and I hear it all the time level one staging, they're gonna, they're gonna stage till that thing burns down. And it's like, well, we, we listen to audio from plenty of fire departments that go to a lot of fires of the wheels never stop turning, right, I mean, as soon as they go level one, that assignment is coming out if there is something for them to do, and if there's not something for them to do, it ends up being like an investigation thing command ladder four I'm clear you're level one. Just acknowledge it so that they know, okay, I know that they're sitting there, right, whether you're the company officer of the company who's in command or you know. Really, that applies to the strategic IC for sure. Like, just go ahead and acknowledge that they're level one, because otherwise they shouldn't, but otherwise they're probably going to call you in five minutes and not five minutes, probably five seconds. Hey, you know we're right here. We're level one. So that's like the initial phase piece of it and then into the middle of it.
Speaker 2:As far as level one goes, I'm going to say that the middle is more that the battalion has already gotten there. So the battalion's there, you're on the first alarm assignment. You're hearing the communications on the fire ground. You heard the initial radio report. You heard size up, you heard the action that was going to be taken. You heard the assignments of the first. You know three, maybe four companies and now you're going to hear that command transfer. So during the command transfer you're going to hear a can report from that company. On the inside You're going to hear a rundown of the work. So really, you're coming into this, you're level one or you're getting ready to go level one. Don't butt in on the radio and say I'm level one when this command transfer piece is happening.
Speaker 2:Now, if shit's going sideways and it's clear that they need resource, then maybe go level one or, in some cases, just make sure to make yourself seen Right. So most incident commanders, though, that use a system if they need somebody, they're just going to say do I have any companies level one staged, or who's the next company level one staged, if that, if that was a thing, right. So a need. So battalion got there and they called command for a transfer, gave them a. This is what I think is happening. This is what it looks like. This is where I believe position and function of units are. Go ahead and give me a can report and the can report comes out. We got the fire knocked down. We're checking for extension. Primary search of the first floor is complete. First floor is complete. We need a company to get to the second floor.
Speaker 2:Well, you're probably going to go to an on-deck company, but that means that a level one company is probably going to get moved up, maybe to be on deck, right. So when everybody's working within the system and you're using all the same terminology and you understand that we deploy in our organization or in our region to address critical fire ground factors, it helps everybody fit into the system, right. It helps to eliminate that. I am here and everybody needs to know I'm here because they need to use me to do something and it's like, no, you're just special in a special way, right? So that's kind of like that middle ground piece, you're probably going to get assigned. But you're going to get assigned based off of what the need is coming from, that can report, because at that point if there's somebody on deck you might just sit there for a minute until they figure out exactly what the specific need is, cause they have somebody forward in that on deck position that they could use if there's an immediate need.
Speaker 2:And then in that, that later wave of level one is, you know, you're the, you've heard all of this. You know for eight, six, seven, eight, 10 minutes. You know in the six, seven, eight, 10 minutes. You know in the response, and you know whether they need resource or they don't need resource right now, right, so yeah, I'm here and I'm level one. So some of the things that are going on at that point in time is there's three or four companies working. I do not need to butt in on any radio traffic and let anybody know that I'm here until there's totally open airwaves, right? So you know, truck seven, we're level one. Copy truck seven. Just stay level one.
Speaker 2:Something that's going on in a whole lot of systems with CAD and so on is like all this geo-fencing and all that, right, so a battalion with an aide sitting in a car. As soon as that vehicle you know, however, you set it up. As soon as that vehicle gets within 500 to 1,000 feet and crosses that geo-fence, it would just populate on your CAD that they are there, right fence. It would just populate on your CAD that they are there right. So I can even see in my rundown on my CAD that here's all the units that are here and the order of arrival of how they got here. So I know that you're here and it's fine. So you don't necessarily need to butt in and say that you're level one. When there's time and the waves are free, then, yes, say level one. So since we've gone that far, john, I think we, I think we should talk about the second alarm and level two staging just a little bit. I mean it, it, it really is. Uh, it's an extension of the 3D deployment.
Speaker 1:So when we do a level two staging area, I think one of the important factors is keeping it away from the incident itself. It's an area away from the incident, so tell us why it's important for that IC to prompt where that staging area is and how resources are going to be requested from the level two staging area once it's established.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So if you're going to, if you're going to call for a second alarm and you don't want them, you don't want them on your attack channel because you need them right now. So I'll give you an example we you go to that apartment building we were talking about earlier and I got seven fire companies total on my first alarm assignment. Well, I might call for a second alarm and I'm not going to probably tell them to stage somewhere else because I want them coming there. I have work for them right now. Right, I'm at the building that's 300 by 300. It's sprinkler controlled. I know I'm going to need them, I just don't need them at this very moment. So I'm going to and I call for a second alarm. So what I don't want is that second alarm assignment, getting on the radio and talking when I got companies in the IDLH, when I'm not going to use those companies right now because I have my three deep fulfilled. I'm calling the second alarm so that I can maintain that three deep when I start sending companies to rehab and so on, or I create other attack positions if this thing ends up going defensive and I have to protect exposures or get into other buildings or something like that.
Speaker 2:So whether you're the first arriving company officer calling for a second alarm, the strategic IC calling for a second alarm, or you build out a command van operation and you're talking about second and third alarm, no matter what, if I'm not going to use the resource right now, I need to tell them, tell the county, tell dispatch to tell them here's the staging location and I want them on a separate frequency because I do not want them interfering with the IDLH traffic and communications.
Speaker 2:So there's two sides to that call on for additional resource, right. So I got there as department building there's a lot of work to do and I want them on the channel because I have work for them to do right now. Or I'm forecasting and there's going to be work for them to do and I'm going to put them on a separate frequency at a separate location and assign a staging officer to them that I will communicate with on a separate frequency, not the IDLA's channel, when I need that resource to move forward. So that second alarm, third alarm, you know, lets us have the companies to keep pace with an escalating event or an operation that's extended with with a level two staging.
Speaker 1:How often would you bring in that logistics officer to start communicating with the level two staging area? Is there, is there a threshold on the amount of companies, amount of resources that you have on the scene that you would like to see that happen at, or is it just a dynamic thing that happens naturally? How do we get that logistics person in place to start tracking that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the person that's getting assigned out there to that geographic location of the level two or staging location of the level two or staging location, it becomes a priority to get them there. But it's not a priority as far as it doesn't override anything that happens on the fire ground. So if the strategic IC doesn't have a support officer, we're not going to get somebody's level two staging officer right. If alpha doesn't have a support officer with them, we're not getting. So until we've reinforced all of the strategic and tactical positions on the fire ground with support, I would not fill that logistics position. But the downfall of that is somebody has to do it right. So whether it's the first company officer there becomes that person. Well, when you assign that company, then what happens? Or well, that company officer is the level two staging officer. So I'm going to use everybody else first before I use them. So you need to have a system and a plan of how you're going to do that. You know one thing I talk about a lot at classes all over the place is uh, most of the country has the ability to get plenty of people there to fill out command function roles. It's a matter of, uh, we're not willing to call them, or we don't call them, or we can't call them over here, because what if there's another incident? Well, you better handle the first one before you handle the thing You're going to handle the second one. Right, you can't spread it so thin that you got 99 cent toilet paper that anything's going to go through. So I mean in our region, here in Ohio and Hamilton County, cincinnati, it is not uncommon for us to get five to seven chief officers, qualified trained chief officers, district chiefs, whatever it is day or night, on an incident, and like every company, they're no different. They level one staged. If you need them, you use them, and if you don't need them, you don't use them. So by the time you're getting to that level two staging thing, you know, you, you, you probably in your geographic area, have more than enough resources to get them there if you need them. So I mean I, you can drive all the way across our entire County on the two 75 loop and 45 minutes. Well, if, if I'm at the far west Indiana border at a Home Depot on fire and I have to get a battalion chief from Anderson Township, that is as far east in Hamilton County as you can go and they're the fifth or sixth chief getting there in 45 minutes, then so be it. But they're coming there to fill out other roles, right? So it's going to be those other support roles that they end up filling. So again, there's plenty of resource there. And I'm going to go back to an article that was written a long time ago you shouldn't send the resource there to do the work if you don't send the people there to manage it. Period Right.
Speaker 2:Every, every time I turn on sports, which that's. I watch sports on TV and that's about all I can endure with the TV, but so I see it a lot. But as I was sitting in the stands last Saturday at the football game, I started counting and I think I counted like 27 coaches or support staff on the field at a college football game. They're all there because they're supporting the whole operation to win the game right A game. And in our system we should send the resource to manage it right.
Speaker 2:And you know we, john, sometimes on here we talk about or use them as an example. I guess, not talk about, but use them as an example. I guess, not talk about, but use them as an example. Fdny the FDNY sends more command and support staff to an incident than 99.9% of the American Fire Service sends to a building on fire, counting everybody and there's a reason why they do it right To manage the event Battalion chiefs, division, division bosses, the area-wide commander.
Speaker 2:Then you end up with, you know, field comm and all these other people there that are all supporting command so that we can do the work. And you know if that's missing. Most of the time it comes down to accidental success when we make it work right, because what does it look like when things don't go as you wrote down on your piece of paper of how you think they should go? The time to wish you had somebody there to help you is not when you need them to help you. We build out a system for, for a reason and as Nick always says, right, yeah, the pilot didn't show up today, but uh, we have. We have somebody on the ground crew who wanted to be a pilot and we're just going to go ahead and let them fly the plane today Ain't going to happen, all right.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't mind hitting on a.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't mind hitting on a question that we've gotten several times and I don't think we've ever addressed this one, but it crossed my mind because of what we were just talking about and I'm hearing from organizations. Well, the district chief was off and the ride up was off, so we just had the lieutenant ride in the car today because we weren't going to pay overtime. And I mean, it seems to be a common thing I'm hearing a lot is we're not going to pay the overtime. We're not going to pay the overtime, and I just wanted to. I wanted to talk about that briefly, right? So if your organization is an EMS based fire-based EMS and you provide paramedic service, you're paying overtime to have paramedics on an ambulance if you don't have somebody to put on there, because that's what you're going to do and not every fire department, I guess, but most fire departments if you are a driver there, you're probably going to jump through some hoops to become a driver, right? Like, oh, we're paying overtime to drive, ladder 25 is out of service. We got to pay overtime to drive. Whatever, it is got to have a driver. But it seems like when we get to that right front seat and I'm hearing it more and more the district chief or battalion chief's off that we're just throwing somebody in that spot and we're really standing on a slippery slope when we do that. Right, yeah, I called it. I'm calling it a district car, but I got a firefighter paramedic riding in there today because really what they do is just, you know, they chase our runs in our town. Well then, call it a chase car or something right, or just take it totally out of service.
Speaker 2:If you don't have a qualified person to fill the position, either pay the overtime or take it out of service. And I get it that the overtime is not always sustainable, but we don't necessarily get to make the decision on what the city is going to pay for and fund and make available, right. So I think that comes down to that, that what is the expectation of the community and what are we going to do when we don't have somebody to fill this position? And you know, my view is is if I don't have a company officer to fill the role, then you're out of service. I mean, it's important enough for us to have them all the time we promoted you for a reason, but then we just throw anybody in the spot and let them do it, and we're crazy as hell if we shouldn't expect different results, right?
Speaker 2:So I mean, I'm hearing that more and more and as we travel around I'm hearing that a bit like yeah, the admin chief is chasing the battalion today because they got somebody in that car who's never ridden in the car before. And it's like what, what are we doing? And we're so selective with some of the positions. Right, the paramedic unit, you know well, you have to ride with a paramedic for six months before you can be the lead parent, all these things, and we will pay somebody to fill the paramedic spot. We know no ands if buts about it.
Speaker 2:And it seems like the driver thing I mean huge liability with driving a fire truck. I get it, like you know. But uh, we train them, we make them go through the course, they gotta do their annual stuff, all of that. But we almost give a disservice to, uh, the importance of the company officer and and and those chief positions that if somebody is not there, I will just fill it with somebody. It's like you're riding a slippery slope. Accidental success only lasts so long and it should not be confused with success.
Speaker 1:So All right, josh, it's time for a timeless tactical truth, and today's timeless tactical truth from Alan Brunasini simple wins, simple wins, simple wins. Chief, always used to talk about overcomplicating an uncomplicated process, which we tend to do both in the bureaucracy that typically runs our fire departments and human beings in general runs our fire departments and human beings in general. Do you have an example on something that is really simple that we overcomplicate sometimes when it either comes to command staging, some of the stuff we've been talking about today with 3DEEP?
Speaker 2:I got one. Before we talk about that, that simple wins and water always wins. So don't delay water under any circumstance. Put water on the fire period. That water for the win, every time, all the time, right.
Speaker 2:And there's plenty of people out there that are going to listen to this and say, oh well, if you have this, you shouldn't put water on it. If you have that, well, that comes back to the critical thinking thing but I'm talking about. The house is on fire and it looks like sometimes we do five different things before we put water on it. It's like why are we not putting water on this? Why are we not putting water on this to solve this problem? If I would have just put water on this right here, right now, I would have kept this to two rooms. 20 minutes later we're on a second alarm because we got three houses on fire and it's like what in the hell happened on the front end of this?
Speaker 2:So that's a simple wins thing, right? So then the other you know simple wins piece is something that we talked about a lot in here the whole staging piece and deploying companies based off of the critical factors and addressing our end objectives. So only deploy resource to the hazard zone to address the critical factors that we identified and to check off the objectives, and that will keep it much simpler, right. So two, three, four, five, six companies working to address the problem that we identified and then still having that tactical reserve in place. So the other thing with simple wins is having a system that everybody understands and is trained on and that you've laid out the expectations on also keeps it simple, right. So the job aid and tool part of it.
Speaker 2:So I have a process of how I size up things. I have a process of how I develop an incident action plan. Oh, that's called the strategic decision making model. So I use a strategic decision making model right to keep it simple on identifying critical fire ground factors, deploying companies to address those problems and right on down the line. So a couple of different examples there Simple wins.
Speaker 1:It is simple. People even overcomplicate blue card. A lot of times they try to throw their own little take on it. You know locally, and what we say is stick with the system, use the parts of the system. It's pretty simple when you do it all together. But when you start to deviate, that's really when it doesn't work very well, because you're over complicating something that really isn't very complicated to begin with.
Speaker 2:All right, I got one more simple one, john, I got one more simple one. So you know we get, we get, uh, I don't know. We've sent that, we've sent our, we've sent that, we've sent our, we've sent our paper IC strategic IC worksheet out to 30,000 people at least by now. Right, I mean this, this last version, we just updated a little bit just to keep it, some reminders on there that the customer asked for and so on. We did that updated tutorial video on it. So I think that's another great example of keeping it simple.
Speaker 2:And I love the sports analogy part of things, because the people who are in the IDLH or managing the IDLH I'll compare that to the people who are standing on the side of the football field managing the shit that's happening on the football field or are on the pen and paper.
Speaker 2:Now, the analogy part of it and some people in the background with technology are using technology, right, I mean technology is amazing of, like, everything that they're doing, like showing replays and you know, uh, the, the quarterback went here and the receiver went there and all of that. But how it's actually getting managed minute by minute is very simple. Right, the? The they're writing down on a, on on some sort of dry erase thing or something right there right now in the moment of what's going on and tracking it back.
Speaker 2:So I think that's another one of those simple things of don't overcomplicate with whatever kind of system. Right, I got 175 Velcro tags on a board that I move around as the standalone Lone Ranger strategic IC to try to track this event and it's like no, just 11 by 17 piece of paper you can run out of three alarm fire that lasted three and a half hours and track position and function of every company and every move that they made, from assignments to rehab, and keep it simple for the jobs, roles and responsibilities of the strategic IC. So just another little side example of it. And if you're looking for that strategic IC worksheet, just reach out to us or you can find it on the website, along with the tutorial videos on how to use it.
Speaker 1:All right, josh. Thank you so much for being here today with us on B Shifter and a great topic 3D. If you have any questions for us because this came from one of the listeners feel free to reach out to us. We'd love to get your questions, comments, things that you would like to hear on this podcast. We want to deliver to you, so please interact with us and let us know if you use the fan mail that is on our podcast. Be advised, that's one way so we'll answer your fan mail on the podcast, but we cannot get back to you. So if you want us to get back to you directly, please just contact us with our emails, either here on the screen or in the show notes, so we can give you an answer directly without waiting for a podcast to come out.
Speaker 2:Very good, John. Well, you better get to class. They're kicking it off over there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I'm getting to class. You have a good one and we'll talk to you next time on the B-Shifter Podcast. All right, john, we'll see you, thanks.