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Command Considerations for Flammable Gas-Related Incidents
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U.S. fire departments respond to an average of 125,000 residential natural gas or liquefied petroleum gas leaks annually, an increase of about 25 percent compared to 2007. Do you have a plan for how your department will respond and mitigate these incidents?
According to the NFPA, every year more than 50,000 fires start as the result of flammable gas while more than 160,000 fires start as the result of flammable or combustible liquid. Combined, flammable and combustible liquids and gases cause more than $2.1 billion worth of property damage and more than 600 deaths annually.
Discover the intricate dance of strategic decision-making in emergency response as we talk with Josh Blum and Chris Stewart. Tackling the unpredictable nature of natural gas and flammable gas emergencies.
Navigating the complexities of gas emergencies requires a partnership that extends beyond the fire department to include utility companies and a rigorous adherence to safety protocols. Learn how to effectively stage equipment, manage evacuation procedures, and tackle the 'you touch it, you bought it' responsibility with precision. Our conversation illuminates the deployment strategies for tactical, strategic, and task level responders, reinforcing the mantra of 'life safety first' and the paramount importance of preparation and training.
This episode features Chris Stewart, Josh Blum and John Vance.
We want your helmet (for the AVB CTC)! Check this out to find out more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg5_ZwoCZo0
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This episode was recorded at the Alan V. Brunacini Command Training Center in Phoenix, Arizona on March 13, 2024.
Natural Gas Emergencies and Blue Card
Speaker 2Hello and welcome to B shifter John Vance , your host here today Josh Bloom and Chris Stewart I almost said Stewart which is our common thing that we say . Today we are going to be talking about natural gas emergencies and other flammable gas emergencies and the blue card policy that kind of helps to guide us and some of the tools that blue card has to prepare you for such emergencies in your jurisdiction . So first of all just want to check in with you guys how you doing .
Speaker 3Doing fantastic . Happy to be here . Always good to hang out at the .
Speaker 2AVBCTC We've got another good week going here .
Speaker 1Busy week at the College of Knowledge .
Speaker 2So , you know , it seems like we're seeing more incidents I don't know if we are or if they're just more catastrophic but what are some of the some of the ways we need to prepare to go on these types of incidents ? And then , what tools do we apply that we have available to us through the , especially the blue card users , to prepare our incident response ? And we're going to talk about things really from an operations point of view , from an everyday response point of view , and that's the way I'm asking that question .
Speaker 3Yeah , so I mean you kind of started . It seems like there's been an increase . So we launched blue card , blue cards , all hazards . We launched the hazmat IC module about five years ago now and a big component of it was natural gas . We did it because we identified , hey , what are basically the big five incidents , four incidents as far as hazmat response that fire departments go to . So natural gas was right at the top , next to really carbon dioxide emergencies , ahead of them a little bit . But you know , in our program we talk about every year 300 plus natural gas or propane events that that are catastrophic , where there's fatalities , or civilian fatalities , or injuries or and big dollar loss .
Speaker 3So you know those numbers explosion right , so involved in that Not just a fire but some kind of explosion . So out of average 10 year average from the national pipeline emergencies work group , about 300 incidents a year , 65 plus injuries . On average roughly 13 people killed , $475 million in loss and in property loss . So I mean that's a lot of . You know , significant events , you know , and how many do we go to that ? That that you know we just got away with , that were natural gas response or propane response . So it's important I think we talk about , like all the critical factor pieces with it .
Speaker 3So , chris , you can jump in anytime , but there's a big difference between respond to natural gas leak in the street or at a house or an apartment building or a commercial building or was it was a line hit by a construction company . Because all of those things are really critical factors in our system of what's really going on there . What type of building is there , who's involved . Sometimes when a pipe , when I'm doing pipeline work , you know somebody might be there that actually knows quite a bit about the system . You know , depending on you know who's doing the work . If it's actually natural gas pipeline work happening , there's obviously somebody there that knows a lot about the system .
Speaker 3But it was an accidental thing . That's a little different . So it has to start with that . So our deployment has to be different for every one of those . So you know , far too often you know the respond for odor or natural gas . Well , is it inside the building or outside the building ? Two totally different things . And if it's inside the building , are the people getting out of the building and that becomes down to the dispatch piece , right ? So what can dispatch do to help us with that and gather information for us ? You know before we're even getting there to the incident . So , chris , I know you always have , you know , a bit on the critical factor thing on that piece , like the building type and the information , and where is it and what's the detail .
Speaker 1So I think a lot of it , like many things . You know we talk about 300 incidents across the country , you know , in the last few years on . You know average around numbers , right , that's roughly one a day around the nation . But there's thousands of gas leak emergency type calls going on in every jurisdiction across the country , you know all year so , and a serious number of those result in nothing , right . So we get sucked into a little bit of complacency and a little bit of ah , these are dumb or nothing really happens on these and we've gotten away with it so long and accidental success a lot of times . And really what we need to do is focus on the things that we've got in our SOGs , the things that we have in our standard strategic decision making and utilizing the functions of command in evaluating and recognizing truly the critical factors and how important of a critical factor not only the gas emergency potentially is what type of leak it is , where it is , what type of structure inside , outside , all those types of things , and connect that to our life safety potential here . Because a lot of times the difference really for the for us from like a normal fire ground is a lot of times the initial arriving companies don't have the ability to mitigate this emergency right . So we can get there , identify what's going on , identify who it's impacting what it's impacting , start to establish some hazards , a hazard zone , establish an area in which we're going to work , what's safe for us to be in , what isn't safe for us to be in , evacuate those people . It goes back to the whole evacuate , isolate , deny entry type stuff and then set up these areas in which we should be working from and knowing and recognizing , based on is it natural gas , is it propane , is it something else ? And the significant differences between natural gas and propane .
Speaker 1Let's say you know the two ? I would . What I think are probably the most common is is one the natural gas specific gravity lighter than air , and propane specific gravity greater yeah , greater than air . So it's going to sink and sit in low places , and so we can't have each one to expect each one to behave like the other .
Speaker 1So we've got to actually be smart and that helps us establish our hazard zone and that whole front end evaluation thing , and so when we get in trouble on these , we have gotten a lot of times sucked into areas and in places and doing things that we probably shouldn't have prior to the technician folks arriving that , who are really going to mitigate this and us working in what I'll say offensive positions during truly defensive conditions .
Speaker 1So the project made a data says that 10 or 9% actually , of all may days between 2026 or 2016 and 2021 , roughly 9% were results of explosions of some kind . 73% of those that got dispatch they knew it was some type of flammable gas leak from dispatch , right , so it wasn't like three quarters of the time . It's not a mystery as to what we're going on , and yet we're still getting caught in positions where we're having may days . So it's that evaluated process on the front end figuring out those critical factors , recognizing what we should be doing based on our risk management plan , what strategy we should truly be in , and then connecting the appropriate action to all of those things in our strategic decision making process .
Speaker 2Backing up the deployment because I think that's a really good place to start . We're all over the place . I see some jurisdictions one guy in a pickup truck for a gas leak . I see some jurisdictions where it's a full first alarm response . What should we be looking at ? Is it different for propane versus natural gas ? On our response and deployment , what should we be sending to those calls for us to have a safe and effective response ?
Speaker 3Yeah , john , we see it right , the one person in a pickup truck . If you want to limit your exposure , that's a great way to do it , but you're taking a big risk if something happens . Right , but we've talked a lot about it a lot .
Gas Emergency Response Best Practices
Speaker 3Most , all majority , of large metropolitan areas that respond to a large number of gas leaks send a pretty heavy response to gas emergencies . We just talked recently about a couple of the incidents in DC , right , and it was all over national news and that those first couple of companies were doing everything right . When they got there they didn't pull in front of the building , they were staged off . It looked , appeared to be a city block or 300 and something feet . And if you look at any of the response guides for response to natural gas or propane or whatever , I mean , it starts with a small leak at 100 meters , you know . So that's 300 feet . So we can kind of judge that . So don't expose ourselves and put us right in front of what's going to happen . And you know we can see the pictures from when an explosion does happen , that you know there's debris , you know sometimes a thousand feet away . So you know we talk about in the blue card program for Hazmat response , specifically with natural gas . That really that's starting off defensive . And you know we're going to start off at 300 feet plus and we're going to start monitoring right away at the apparatus and then we're going to approach that area and you know Chris said it , we probably say it a hundred times in the program isolate and evacuate and if you can control you know the flow , if possible a meter or you know a valve , because it's right there in your face , shut it off . Because it's not a technician level response , it's really , it's really like an operations level . Has my response ? I mean , we're not . We're not . We're not bending over lines and putting special tools , typically as the fire department . Some places are doing that . They have a , you know , some specialized training or whatever , but you know we're not doing that .
Speaker 3So , when it comes to when it comes to deployment , you know the deployment has to match the potential or the potential work that's going to take place . And you know , if we're going to put on our turnout gear and put a mask on , then we need to have things in place to address that . And if something happens to the first company , we want to be able to address that something that happened to them . We want to limit our exposure still and only have that one company , you know , into the has zone because really we're treating it like a hazmat incident . There's a whole lot of unknowns with natural gas because there's a natural gas leak somewhere . There is the perfect mixture . So , you know , I think there's more for us to learn and study in our industry . You know nationwide about this and we can learn best practice from a lot of these people who are very successful responding to thousands of natural gas events , not with accidental success .
Speaker 3But the DC model , right , I mean , it blew up . They realized what happened , they then they then they were able to take action and thank God they didn't pull right in front of the building . And you know , I think it was just a month before that . We saw the . The Fort Worth event , right , the explosion in Fort Worth and the fire department got called to that as an explosion . But I got some footage from somebody who was there in the area when that happened and it was like don't be in front of that .
Speaker 3So it comes down to you got to be doing everything right when something goes wrong and we get caught so much because we're fixers and you know we got called to the natural gas leak and ended up being the stove that the possibly somebody left the knob on . Whatever . We shut it off and it's like , ok , it was no big deal . Well , nothing's a big deal until it is right .
Speaker 3So it comes back to the critical factor with the value , with critical factors , which , to me , starts with we park this far away , we wear all of our gear appropriately , we send the proper response , people stage , you know , in a certain direction , somebody's on a water supply , if need be . Life safety is a huge part of it , including our own . So , isolate and evacuate , call the utility company , because they're the professionals , Something about the utility company that resonates with me Every time we talk about natural gas . So Duke Energy in Ohio , which is , I think , connected to 30% of the gas distributors in the United States , affiliate somehow or another . They all Ohio , Kentucky , north Carolina , whatever . They're all connected . We were wanting to get some of their folks on video and talking head stuff and they were like , no , you're the fire department . How about you go there and isolate and evacuate and you call us and then we'll fix it ?
Speaker 3And we were told by their director of safety , who was way up in the organization , you touch it , you bought it and it's like well , that was a thing , so I mean that's in our program , because I remember early on , you know , we would throw a wet towel across the yellow pipe and put a pair of ice grips on it and crimp it off . And now it's like , no , that's , it's not our thing , Right , I mean , we don't own that , we don't know what it's going to do . You know when we do that and in this case what our objectives are is life safety , right , and then limit exposure . And that's what we're doing is we're evacuating , isolating , which is limited in exposure , and we're going to utility company can get there and they're going to mitigate it .
Speaker 1You know , from that point forward , which really lines right up with how we respond to lots of hazmat incidents- and so I think organizations need to look at the deployment process and what they're sending based on the work that needs to happen . And so I'll say , first and foremost and in my experience the vast majority of these need some level of strategic , strategic IC responding . They need task and tactical level folks that are actually going to be able to do the work . And there needs , there needs to be technician level folks responding , and whether they're actually going to do something or not doesn't matter . You get them responding and get them into the system early .
Speaker 1And for us , at least in the system I grew up in , they were the connection point to the partners , to the . For us it was Southwest Gas , right to the folks that are actually managing that , or Arizona propane , or whoever the propane provider is that we dealt with the most . And so you've not only have a strategic , technical task level coming from the fire department to be able to manage this from the beginning and hopefully making good decisions , but then connecting directly to the partners as soon as we possibly can , because we want to compress that timeframe where we actually have an emergent situation or have the potential for that , for that gas mixture to define the right combination so that we do have a problem . And so the the recognition of in the hazmat world , our hazmat guys you know , gas leaks were the man down call of the hazmat world right , because they went on so many of them . And then so figuring out and tailoring the right level of response , based upon some of the stuff Josh said earlier , is inside or outside .
Speaker 1If it's inside , is it a home , is it multifamily , is it a more industrial setting , is it a hospital ? You know the public assembly type places , and then so our response is scaled from very simple one engine company , one hazmat technician company and a battalion chief to , you know , three engines , a truck company and three hazmat companies and three or four battalion chiefs . So it depends and organizations need to kind of walk through that on the front end so that when they get the information and then you can allow the dispatchers to kind of to begin that size up process that they're punching out the right , the right resources on the in the beginning . And and I guess that you know the old adage is true If you don't need them , send them all . That's pretty good .
Speaker 2So let me get the situation evaluation where we're looking at . What is it that we have ? When should we never be going into an atmosphere versus going into , you know , my question is like shutting the oven off , Is it ? Are we okay to do that ? Or do we control it at the meter and then call the company to come in and control what's inside the house , what's really ? And when I say the company , the public utility , what's , what's really the best practice on that ?
Speaker 3So I mean we start , we start monitoring , you know , with with a , with a four or five gas meter , whatever you're using , and then you know , I think best practices running one or two of those meters right next to each other with a combustible gas meter , and you know , whatever that device is that your organization chooses , and we start that far away . So that was this . Was this a gas leak outside that's getting inside , or is it inside and now it's coming outside ? So I mean those are all things that you have to think about and are critical factors that help us evaluate what's going on . And you know , then we're talking to that responsible party . If you're at a house , like , what is going on , what do you have ? If you know in your home that is natural gas , a big telltale sign is if your natural gas meter is outside and that dial is going crazy , it's like , oh , what's going on with that , which is becoming a challenge now , because you don't see that because of electronic meters and it's all just connecting the Wi-Fi or whatever . So there's just a valve that the utility company can control electronically , you know , to , just like they do all the electric . You know components with electric lines , but so a lot of things I think we can .
Speaker 3We can tell with that the absolutely positively we're stopping and we're doing nothing . I mean , your meter goes off 10% LEL and depending on what you have it calibrated with , it really doesn't matter . If your meter goes off , that's 10% of the LEL , right ? So if the LEL is 2.1 , well , it's only 10% of the 2.1 of that LEL number , right , which we're not getting into . You know , this isn't a hazmat class , we're not getting into all of that . But that's the , that's that sign of OK , that's enough that we're not going to stay here , right ? That's the same thing that lines up with confined space and anywhere else that we're going to work . So if the meter's calibrated and you're following NIOSH recommendations at 10% of the LEL , the meter's going to start going off . So that's the absolute OK . We're going to go back until there's no gas present and where there is gas presence , the hot zone , right , and then beyond that we create a warm zone and then a cold zone . So you know , if I'm getting into the house , I open the door and I take a second and I monitor there , right , because we have to understand how our equipment works to that it's not going to go off . It's not going to do something right now . Well , I'm 10 feet inside the house and all of a sudden it starts going off . Well , I probably had a reading at the front door too .
Speaker 3So , you know , it's that slow , uh methodical approach to monitoring which is a whole task level thing . But in our system we talk so much about task , tactical , strategic level . You have to connect all of them together . And the strategic I see Chris is in the car . Well , he can't tell the task level guy . You know what he's doing with that . They have to do their job , you know , with that piece of it .
Speaker 3So if we're not getting a reading and we have an odor , you know there's a pretty good chance it might be the stove or whatever . But if you're getting a reading , it's likely not a malfunction , or a knob is turned on something . There's probably something broken . The , the , the furnace is had a complete failure of of some component , or the natural , or your the dryer , or hot water , something has like failed typically . Or there's a gas leak outside that is , you know , coming into the home , which you know we get .
Speaker 3That , which is why it's so important to start monitoring outside and you know some ways that you can figure that out is you know , natural gas rises . So it's pretty simple . If you , if you start monitoring some sewer leads going down the street , you can kind of start to figure out it was this outside or inside . It never hurts to do a 360 around the building and do a little monitoring Like where , where's it coming from ? I mean , if we're talking about Chris and I were to save on the discussion in his place that we're where he's at now no natural gas , all exterior propane tanks . They do have basements , right , and that's a little . That's a . That's a big change from your response in the Phoenix area , right ?
Speaker 1So I wake up at night thinking about that .
Speaker 3Right , yeah , I mean it keeps you up , right . So that's just another another piece of it . So to answer your question is if you're getting a reading on your meter , no matter what , we're going to isolate and evacuate the people from the immediate space . If I get the 10% and I'm at a house , we're evacuating that house , which we were going to do anyway , and then we're going to start to go to the , to the , those two other exposures and isolate them . If you can shut the gas meter off , if you get a reading and you just shut the gas meter off on the outside , then so be it and hopefully you're solved .
Speaker 3You know the problem . I wouldn't go out of my way If your meter's going off at 10% . I would not go out of my way to try to shut the gas meter off if it wasn't readily available . I mean , if I had to go into the basement or search inside of the building for it . I'm not doing that . So I mean there's a ton of variables
Natural Gas Response Planning and Mitigation
Speaker 3to it , right .
Speaker 3So I think the takeaway at the end of this and we're maybe in the middle right now is there's a ton of variables , a ton of critical factors . We have to think . None of them are the same . We can't treat every natural gas run like the last 10 that we went on that turned out to be not much of nothing or was the gas coming from a stove , or they over pressurized the system so something burped and somebody's HVAC system sucked a little gas into the building . We just had that in our region . Like 25 gas runs in five minutes on the same street and it's like , yeah , the system got over pressurized , it burped just like it's supposed to , with a line on a major roadway , it's outside , it was cold out , the HVAC system's running everywhere and it just sucked it in and it's like you're going to smell natural gas for a second , but not one reading anywhere . So but that starts to create that mindset of all these are all nothing and it's like , well , that's where we get ourselves into trouble .
Speaker 1And I think the what do we do in the beginning has to be you know , we're assessing the problem and the threat , if you will , in the way Josh would talk about , and it's got to be connected to our . Is life safety a critical factor , or isn't it ? Do I need to get in there and evacuate people that are either in what I think is a hazard zone or potentially the warm zone , and get them out , and then at that point , okay , we're no longer going to go in there , we're going to truly make that a hazard zone and nobody's going back in that area . So there may be a time when we're functioning in that , in the hot zone , with full PPE , breathing air , doing everything we're supposed to in order to get that all clear , to get to remove the life safety problem and then take a very pessimistic , defensive approach and be generous with our hazard zones .
Speaker 2When we're in a defensive strategy say , we go in , we clear any life safety problem , we evacuate , we isolate then at what point do we start securing water supplies ? You know getting lines out for standby if we believe we have a significant leak on an interior of a building , regardless of the type of structure it is commercial or residential . When do we start setting ourselves up for a potential ? You know firefight and I've had everything . I used to have a fire chief that when we would send a squad on a gas leak , his claim was is all natural gas explosions blow themselves out ? Well , I've been on a couple where they don't . I know that and I also know that you're , you know you can have a massive ignition source from it . So how , you know , what do we start to do on the outside ? Or and not just setting out lines and securing water supplies what other things do we do from a warm zone perspective to save the scene ?
Speaker 3Yes , I mean , I think , making one , making sure that you keep it , keep that area isolated right , you continue to monitor , you make sure that wherever the warm zone is where the fire companies are working or or staged that you don't have a reading and then keeping everybody else into the , into the cold zone . And if we're into that point of it , then then our warm , then our entire , the entire hot zone right goes all the way to wherever we don't have a reading . So I mean , if that means we're evacuating 15 houses , that's what it means . If it means that it's last January , 17 below zero , 150 apartments in a four story center hallway apartment building and they walked through the door and the meter started going off and they were like we got to evacuate this whole thing and it's like , well , yeah , we're going to call the Metro bus service and we're going to have to get these people . You know , four blocks away from here and you know , and that ended up being a two inch line that came into the building that severed at at the wall and it was quite a while before the energy company was even able to control that because they were tracking back all through this apartment complex . It was before the meter . I mean , it was a , it was a , it was a mess , right ? So that's a whole other set of critical factors .
Speaker 3So you want to talk about how many resources do you need ? Well , when you get there , you got to make some decisions like , oh , I'm at a four story apartment building with all these apartments and it's cold outside and I have a reading room and I'm going to evacuate the entire thing . Well , that's a whole other set of factors , right ? So , as far as like starting to like like actually hook up water supplies and put hand lines on the ground , uh , I think we keep ourselves in that level , one like staged location , and we really don't do that unless there was an explosion . Then we're going to get water supplies and start to set ourselves up for , okay , there was an explosion , which means that's things still , like you said , blew the fire out , potentially or likely , that means we still got a gas leak , a bigger gas leak , probably , right , so we could have a bigger event . So one thing is I don't like putting any companies in the position of tying themselves to a fire hydrant when they could be putting themselves in the hot zone and not be able to get out of that position very quickly and I mean we can always walk away from it , right , but unless we have an absolute reason to be on a water supply with hand lines on the ground , which would be I think there was an explosion and now these exposures have some fire or there's some fire on the ground or you know whatever . We're really not doing that . But what we are doing is we're in the mindset of companies or engines are level one stage , which means they're on a fire hydrant and hopefully coming from different angles .
Speaker 3So one of the things with the program is when you run a simulation so we have a simulation that is a gas leak you get inside and there's 10% LEL and you got to evacuate . You know a pretty significant area of home . So what's that really look like ? How many people does it take , how many people do you expose to do that ? And then how do you keep them out of there ?
Speaker 3And then we have a track hoe incident where a track hoe hit a gas line . There's a fire , but it's not really exposing anything , but the track is going to burn up regardless . Right , don't put it out , because now we got , we just created a whole another problem for ourselves , and then you know natural gas simulation number three is there was a building that did explode . It's on the ground , there's some fire around it , but the exposures do have some fire , and then you know , further out . We have to get into those spaces , all of those spaces for life safety , right , and then start to set up our isolation . Like how are we going to isolate this area ? So we should always be ready with water tying ourselves , anchoring ourselves , if you will , to into the potential hazard zone on natural gas response , as there should be a good reason to do that , if you're , if you're gonna do that .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think the so we're talking about .
Speaker 1You know our potential or our ability to mitigate a problem or the consequences of a problem like the explosion .
Speaker 1So sometimes it's a guess If we're hooking up lines and we want to be prepared to flow water , we don't mind , not even be really sure exactly where the leak is , and that type of stuff so it becomes it can potentially be problematic for us .
Speaker 1The times I've got the most experience with us hooking water up and actually putting firefighters on hand lines is when the gas company shows up and they're gonna go in the hole or they're gonna go to wherever the leak is and actually mitigate it and we're there for their protection . And and we had an incident in Phoenix in the late 90s where we blew up a sports shoe place . We had fire companies there in the middle of the night . They were actually on hand lines while the crew was down in the hole . That leak found an ignition spot and then it blew up and there's 10 issues for five blocks in every direction and we had fire companies there . We didn't necessarily foresee that happening there . So we've got to be really smart about when we're in those positions and understanding and recognizing the potential for it because that hand line during the explosion really ended up doing absolutely nothing to decrease the potential or the opportunity for that explosion to happen .
Speaker 2Another part of incident action planning . Then say , the public utility company gets there , they get things shut off . They want us to stand by . That's a request often . At what point do we help them ventilate If they're requesting ventilation ? Or at what time do we initiate ventilation ? Or is there , we're still just monitoring and waiting for the under 10% LEL ? That's always been another confusing thing to me . It's like what point do we try to ventilate this building ?
Speaker 3So everything from a house to the center hallway apartment to a 600 by 600 commercial building that a main supply line going into it broke on . And in every one of those circumstances , when we felt , coordinating with the experts , that it was time to ventilate , our ventilation was natural ventilation and we just did that the best we could , without putting any equipment into place . Right , and I mean with natural gas . Often times you can , you can evacuate , ventilate natural gas relatively quickly once the leak has been shut off , just because it is , it's gonna , it's gonna float away . Right , it wants to rise .
Speaker 3And then , you know , with propane it becomes a problem because of the of a basement and getting in the void spaces . So on the flip of that , I guess with the natural gas thing and we talk about it is , natural gas is gonna go to the top . So in our world , get natural gas leaks in the basement . It's like , well , we can't really find much in the basement , but there's a lot on the second floor . Well , you better check the attic , because that's where it's just waiting . It's just waiting for something right , and we've seen plenty of roofs blow off that . Who knows what the reading was . But the firemen weren't in there anymore , thankfully , but there was an event while the fire department was still there .
Speaker 3So , having an understanding of , again , the critical factor piece , right , propane is going to be in the basement or down in the sewer system and natural gas is gonna , you know , float and go up and get into attic spaces , go , you know , go higher , whatever . Back to it , right , the critical factors make and decisions like what are we really dealing with here ? You're gonna get called to a natural gas leak . Was it natural gas or is it propane ? That comes back to the pre-plant thing , right , chris ? I mean , if you called natural gas leak and and you're where you're at now , it's like , well , no , it ain't because we don't have any , it's good , it's it's propane , right , and so what does that ? What does that mean ?
Speaker 1yeah , so , and my experience working with our partners is that you , we need to establish a relationship before the call , like we need to know and understand . We probably need to train at least some regular basis together , because there has been a time and a place where we show up and the experts , the the people that are supposed to do this aren't in pre previously , they're not wearing the PPE that they're supposed to , they're not doing some of the things that they need to , and so it's since we're the people there that are supposed to protect them and back them up we've got to sit down and go no , no , no , this is we're gonna do it to this degree . We're gonna do it the way we've said . We were gonna do it , following your policies and our policies , to make sure that happens , because they don't get to take excessive risk in this , just like we don't get to take excessive risk so , when it comes to propane , one of these skills that you we trained on for a long time was the ignited propane pre .
Speaker 2You know the propane tree . They bring out , they ignite it and then you come in with two teams on a fog nozzle the guy in the middle that's going to turn it off .
Transportation Hazmat Response Strategy and Training
Speaker 2Is that something that I've practiced it a lot . You're coming from a jurisdiction that has a lot of propane . Is that an actual practice and , if so , when ?
Speaker 1I have zero experience of doing it in the real world . I can't say I've seen it , can't say I've heard of an incident in and around me where it actually happened . I think there probably is a time and a place , with it venting and or when it's when that , when it's eventing and burning like that and you're you're trying to keep the tank or the container cool and but somebody has to get in there to shut it off . I think there's a time and place I don't , I can't say that it happens very often enough To where we need to initiate that or , and it or it can't be shut off in another way , from a remote location or or something like that . So , yes , it's a , we all practice that dance of advancing those two hose lines up there , but I can't say I've ever seen it , done it or been around it for real .
Speaker 3So we see , we see some of our users that connect with our system . Winston Salem of North Carolina fire department . I mean , uh , you , you , there there has Matt technician specialist specialized train . Yeah , I mean they posted on social media . You see them doing the full scale exercise of of . You know either that or actually just burning off propane . You know flare off operations , yeah Right .
Speaker 1And but that that is not the everyday fire department .
Speaker 3We showed up on an engine and I just like going . You know I'm going to run engine and I just like going to fires and that is a very special skill set . Right , and we , that would only happen if we're uh , if we have those people available , right . So it comes back to the deployment . What can we really do with the resources we have available ? And I mean you can talk about the propane thing all the way down to a 20 pound propane gas grill on fire , right , I mean you , the back , the propane gas grill , john , you've made a hundred of them . Mm hmm , propane gas grills on fire on the back porch .
Speaker 1It's because the they throw them in the pool around here .
Speaker 3Yes , you know the gas line burned off , you know whatever thrown up the back of the house and you know we , we kind of just cool that and if we can shut the tank off , that's going to , it's going to help us out , right . Well , it's still a big . I mean it's a big risk and what it is . But I mean that that that's a that's , that's an operational thing . I can figure that out and do that . I can put a fog stream on it . I can shut that valve off because I can just see that the the hose you know burnt through or hot grease dripped on the whatever it is right . But that's not a 250 pound cylinder or a 500 pound . You're getting into a different place , right . So organizationally , you have to decide what skill set your task level workers have and what's available .
Speaker 3As far as specialized operations which we talk so much about , like Chris said , you know the Metro cities send hazmat tech units to shit . You go to , you go to a carbon oxide incident and a high rise building . You're getting a specialized hazmat tech unit , right , and so I mean that's all over the place . So what do you have available ? One of the reasons they do it is because they're right there . They're available , let's get , let's get them coming here and if we don't need them , we'll send them back . But we have somebody that's got a little bit more of a skill set knowledge , monitoring , you know all of those things . So , again , it all comes down to what are your capabilities and decision making ? Cause you can't do the work if you don't have the people to do the work and don't try to do the work if you don't have the people to do the work .
Speaker 1Knowledge , skills and abilities , we we need the number of people to do the work and then , if we're going to engage in something that specialized knowledge , skills , ability to actually be able to do what it is , the , the mitigation part that we're , that we're talking about that , that not not many of us actually possess to be able to do that .
Speaker 2How about these ? Just to switch gears a little bit , because we've been talking about fixed facilities , but transportation emergencies . So , whether they're tankers or vehicles that are natural gas powered , with pressurized natural gas powering the vehicle cylinders that are being hauled , how , how do we approach those ? Um ? Are they any different in our approach , in particular if they're on fire ?
Speaker 3That goes back to the knowledge , skill , ability , thing , right ? So , uh , we have a rumky garbage by us and they got CNG trucks every day of the week growing up and down the road , and now we have , uh , it's all across the country . Ups is using , uh , compressed natural gas .
Speaker 1uh , every city bus trailer .
Speaker 3So I mean that comes down to like the knowledge , skill , ability , like what's going on here . But why is this thing acting the way that ? It is wise and we see it right ? I mean it's blowtorching a couple of hundred feet down the road . We've seen it in , especially in in Europe and France and some other places . We've seen some videos from some of those places . Like , holy shit , like don't be standing in front of that . It's a , it is , it's going to kill anything in its path .
Speaker 3And that comes down to the how do you control it ? How do you shut it off ? Having the having the relationship for us with runky trash , having a relationship with the Metro bus service on it , will bring that bus out here . Let's talk about it . How does it work ? Do your drivers know that if there is a problem that they can kill it with , this , emerge , push the red button and it's going to shut it off , right ? So , uh , and that's the future .
Speaker 3I mean alternative energy sources propane , compressed natural gas , rumky , you know , uh , the methane that comes off of Mount Rumpke , as we call it . I mean it's , it's unbelievable . I mean you can see them at any time , flaring , burning off there , right ? Of course , you've been there and you've . It was a big hole and now it's a mountain and it's like , well , they're , they're going to use that . They're going to use that because it's they're , they're making it from garbage . So , uh , I know people are tired of hearing it , but it all comes back to the critical factors . We have to make decisions we can't get tired of saying it .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , so , like I think of the those poor cats in LA city . Right , they show up on that truck . It's a truck fire , it's , it's got natural I think it was a natural gas , uh , propelled truck and um , so when , when we , when it's burning , we've definitely got to put water on it . We need to be really careful and considerate about how we're going to do that . And can we do that from safe distances ? Can we do that with unmanned streams ? Can we do that , uh , and put us at least in the best possible position to be protected If something explodes like it did there and thank goodness those , those guys , survived , um , is all right .
Speaker 1Can we do that ? How can we do that differently when we have it , Because we're all going to end up going on that , so is is our ability to put water on it , cool it that type of stuff and keep us farther , uh , at a distance away , and let it do what it's going to do . We'll do the best we can to slow it down or keep it from happening , but but , uh , let's let's try not to be up close and personal , yeah .
Speaker 2There's a um from what I read , not just with that incident but any incident like that . Isn't there some kind of like fine line ? You have to walk between preventing the love blevy from happening versus occluding the relief valve . That is probably off gassing already . But if we put water on that , especially with C and G , isn't there a threat of that freezing then and then holding the gas in ? Then we we have even more pressure and more of a problem , which may have happened in LA , I don't know , but yeah .
Speaker 1I'm trying to be smart about where you're putting water . Are you putting your water on things that you're trying you know , uh , the exposures , if you will , the rest of the truck you're trying to keep that from burning . Or are we actually trying to put water on the containers to keep them cool ? And and you know it's hard sometimes to to decide or to be able to manage exactly where our water is going as soon as it leaves the line we're we're trying to get it there and to that and and if there's a risk of us , our water , creating damage , then we need to reconsider that or creating a problem that's going to cause explosions .
Speaker 3Just talk briefly about Chris .
Speaker 3I know you got experience with this . So we're at a building on fire and we realize that a gas line has now failed , right so , so , uh , I , we've been both . We've both been to incidents where , uh , we did not realize , maybe , exactly what was going on and we unintentionally put the gas fire out and we created a bigger problem , right so , you know , that comes back to that training everybody on every level and understanding like what's really going on here , and that I'm going to put water on this building , but I'm going to let that thing keep burning off , cause the last thing I want to do is fill this thing full of of natural gas . And then I made a bomb , basically , right so , uh , that's just another piece of it and it wasn't really a big topic for us today . But I mean , we're going to those events and we see that and , you know , the safest thing at that point is , uh , let that burn off . If I can shut the gas meter off , great , but oftentimes that line is on the outside and it had burned
Recognizing and Managing Natural Gas Emergencies
Speaker 3through .
Speaker 1So and it's a recognition of you . Can you , oftentimes you can distinguish flammable gas coming out under pressure that's burning , compared to all the other fuels in around it , and then , if you do see that , recognizing that , managing where you're putting your water . So , some recognition and training for young firefighters young , old or old firefighters , I guess it doesn't matter is all right . There is a , there's a , there's a . There can be a sound difference , there can be a visual difference . And then what ? What is it that we should or shouldn't do ? Uh , cause , yeah , putting it out uh tends to , um , be bad for us . We burned down a safe way because we , we put that fire , we put out a gas leak fire , and then it it , uh , it created a much more hazardous situation for us that we then could not control .
Speaker 2You guys have time to hang out and do a timeless tactical truth Always time , all right , let's do it Now . We're going to see these timeless tactical truths today are timeless tactical truth from the chief is you can't save anyone when you are a victim . Boy , that is apropos to this discussion . You can't save anyone when you are a victim . How's that tie into the topic today ?
Speaker 1This might take longer than the natural .
Speaker 3Yeah , john , I can't start with that at the event . I have to start with you better be doing everything right when you got into that fire truck and put your seatbelt on , and you better not drive like an idiot and don't blow red lights , and you have to get there to make a difference . Right , they called us and it's an emergency , but it shouldn't be an emergency for us , it was an emergency for them . So you know it starts with that and for me it comes down to doing everything you got to be doing everything right all the time , and you know we're gonna make mistakes . But there's a difference between making mistakes and just being stupid and Just doing what you want because you got away with it and you know for what we're talking about today . To jump right to the natural gas thing , if we , if we pull up right in front of the building and it blows up every bit of focus on the fire department response and we can look at Video after video after video and we can talk to our friends and colleagues about it , when , when , when something happens to the firefighters Mayday , mayday , mayday , whatever it is that's where the focus goes , whether I'm at a natural gas leak or I was cutting a hole in the roof and I fell partially through .
Speaker 3And the next , the next video clip , shows 20 plus firemen trying to pull somebody out . Right , we're gonna save our own , I mean , well , that's what we're gonna do . But the reason they called us is Our big , our big objectives . Right , life safety and put the fire out . Or you know , for natural gas they called us . And it's life safety . We're gonna isolate and evacuate and we're gonna try to help help , it's conserve and save their property by controlling the utility if we possibly can , but we're gonna call the appropriate people to help with it . So , chris , I think you're right . I'm not gonna say much more , if any more , because this is a . This is a this is a series , I think yeah .
Speaker 1So this goes to the term professionalism , right ? So , and then you'll hear a lot of conversations , you know , across the fire surface and all the places those conversations happen now , about what , the what , what the communities want from us , what the customer wants from us , what , what . And they want us to be professional , they want us to show up and have a clue and they want us to act appropriately and do the right things to save them or their stuff . Well , if we get screwed up in that process , it always takes away from being able to do any of those things . Every single time . It will take away from that .
Speaker 1So we have to be really , really good at our job and we have to be good at keeping ourselves out of trouble , because it's the only way we can devote a hundred percent attention to actually fixing the problem that mr Smith called us for . I , one of my earlier Recreation recollections on the job is an engine company getting in an accident , go into a fire call and the fire chief asking If you guys don't get there , can you do your job ? And then you know they think they're honestly like no , we can't Point very well , taken right . And so that's to me if we're not at our best and we're not doing our job and we're not keeping ourselves out of trouble , then we are taking away from taking care of mrs Smith .
Speaker 2Well , excellent discussion . Thanks so much , guys . So it's great to see you , great to hang out . If someone wants to get more resources From blue card on natural gas emergencies , on propane emergencies , where do they go ? Where can we send them to Josh ?
Speaker 3Yeah , so I mean anybody that's it's a blue card user . All 50,000 plus of them right now have access to it online . Every blue card instructor 4,000 plus instructors currently have it in the download center . Actually , all of the hazmat respond , all of our sRGs are in there and then it's always in the show notes . Right , and we're always available . John , they can send it to you , me , chris , anybody right , and we will send them a word document that they can adjust and refine and do with . You know what they want to do with it , yeah all right , we've got it for you .
Speaker 2Look at those show notes . Not only do we have links to contacting us , we also have the hazard zone conference coming up . Early bird pricing still in effect , so get online and get that . It's probably the most affordable , affordable chalk full of content training you can get out there . So we're gonna be back in Cincinnati starting on September 30th with an expanded roster this year with some added workshops Plus the main thrust of the concert or concert rather , the conference later in the week . So we've got a lot of stuff going on there until next time .
Speaker 3Yeah , they can check it out . I mean it's in the show notes hazard zone BCcom . There's 26 different presenters .
Fire Service Conference Preview
Speaker 3This year we're gonna have Dan FSRI Madrakowski doing About an hour and 45 minute or so discussion on Really just the state of what we're seeing with the fire service , of rapid fire growth , specifically talking about lithium-ion batteries . Shane Ray's gonna be back , our partner with NFSA , talking about sprinklers and big box fire and what that really means . Chief Leib's coming back to do a general session on kind of like for most of the world , high-risk , low frequency stuff not for them so much but Mid-rise , high-rise fires , but just talking about that . What does that , what does that really look like and what's it take ? And then we have a 20 plus other , you know classroom sessions over over that two-day period . We're doing the Mayday workshop to two days before the conference and then we're offering a three-day cert lab and Every day , every day people , more and more people are signing up .
Speaker 2So we're looking forward to it . All right , and not to make this a million plugs , but also in the show notes , don't FAFO ? We have that t-shirt available too , so you can check that out as well . We got to go . See you next time on B shifter .