When life seems to cruise along, that's often a signal as the perfect moment to shake things up. Our latest episode shares these personal revolutions about when it is time to move on and also serves as a guide for spotting the often-subtle cues for change in personal and professional spheres. Bringing in stories from the fire service, we explore the impact of adept training and swift action, reinforcing the intrinsic value of readiness and the critical role of organizational health in such decisive moments.
This episode features Nick Brunacini and John Vance.
We want your helmet (for the AVB CTC)! Check this out to find out more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg5_ZwoCZo0
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Please subscribe and share. Thank you for listening!
This episode was recorded in Arizona on January 10, 2024.
When life seems to cruise along, that's often a signal as the perfect moment to shake things up. Our latest episode shares these personal revolutions about when it is time to move on and also serves as a guide for spotting the often-subtle cues for change in personal and professional spheres. Bringing in stories from the fire service, we explore the impact of adept training and swift action, reinforcing the intrinsic value of readiness and the critical role of organizational health in such decisive moments.
This episode features Nick Brunacini and John Vance.
We want your helmet (for the AVB CTC)! Check this out to find out more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg5_ZwoCZo0
Sign up for the B Shifter Buckslip, our free weekly newsletter here: https://lp.constantcontactpages.com/su/fmgs92N/Buckslip
Shop B Shifter here: https://bshifter.myshopify.com
Register for the 2024 Hazard Zone Conference here: http://hazardzonebc.com/
All of our links here: https://linktr.ee/BShifter
Please subscribe and share. Thank you for listening!
This episode was recorded in Arizona on January 10, 2024.
Alright, welcome to B Shifter. It's John Vance. Nick Bernacini today Glad to have you along with us. How are you doing, nick?
Speaker 1:I'm doing quite well, John Vance.
Speaker 2:What's new in your world?
Speaker 1:You know it's 2024, the new year, but you know really it's the same old stuff, just the new year to do it, and I think, which is good that's. I mean, I think that's kind of the way we set this up, is you want things a certain way and you know to progress through time. That way, I guess, yeah, what the hell? Good.
Speaker 2:You, yeah, doing great. You know I'm about ready to embark on a little bit of a life change, which brings us to the question that we were going to talk about today. That was suggested by our friends at the Loveland Fire Department in Colorado that that loved one. And the question is is when do you know it's time? And right now I'm getting ready to, in just a few business days, leave the job that I've been in for a little over 10 years to pursue other avenues, including more work with B shifter and blue card and a little part time fire job that I'm going to help a department out with. So I'm looking forward to all of that. But but the question is is how do you know it's time? Like what? What do you do to validate that decision? You know what? What are the indications that you're ready for a change? Maybe change isn't good for everybody. I mean, I know some people really freak out with change.
Speaker 1:True that.
Speaker 2:What do you think about that?
Speaker 1:Well, man, I think you I don't know, you said it earlier it's. It's both fluid and dynamic at the same time, and as life evolves and changes, sometimes it does it in a way that it's better to zig instead of zag. Maybe. So for you, what led you to the decision that it's time for me to go you?
Speaker 2:know there's a couple of things. I mean there's always been the work that we're doing here that has been kind of on the back burner and I'm juggling a couple of things, but with with me it was more of an organizational checkup and I've seen a lot of fire chiefs leave when they're at the lowest point of their career because they were forced out or you know, there's a change in administration with the city manager or a mayor that doesn't necessarily like the direction of the fire department.
Speaker 1:And I didn't have any of that.
Speaker 2:I mean, what I had was a fire department that I think is functioning very, very well right now. We had two major events that I believe we got a B plus and an A on, and that was a firefighter with a Mayday. That firefighter with the Mayday was quickly resolved, just per all of our training, like we normally do. And then, following that, was a physical rescue from a house and we were coming back from the conference in Cincinnati. I was riding in the van with six other guys from my department and we we pop a house fire. So we start listening to it as people do on their phones now and while listening to this fire, at first I was getting angry because I feel like we're not staffed appropriately. There were about eight people on the scene and they had a victim trapped. Now, listening to it further, they did a great job. I mean they found out that it was a walkout basement because they did a 360. There are only seven occupancies on that street with a basement and this was one of seven in this entire like complex of condominiums and they identified that they had a walkout that they can make access. They thought to the victim that way. They went in, did a search. The search took about two, two and a half minutes. They found the victim, brought her out through the Charlie side and got her in the Ambo. That was all in 10 minutes from arrival on the scene to the patients in the Ambo.
Speaker 2:On the way to the hospital she had partial thickness, burn, smoke inhalation. She was in bad shape. She made it. I mean, she luckily made it and it's because of the crews. And then finding out what the crews did they got water on the fire while that search was going on simultaneously, so they didn't forget about the fire. They took care of that and after that I kind of felt like my work here is done. I don't know how much better it's going to get here on out. So that day October 7th 2023, I made my decision like as soon as I can leave, I'm going to leave and I think shortly thereafter I gave my three months notice. So I'm leaving at the best time for the organization, I think, to pass it off to somebody else who can take it to new heights.
Speaker 1:You know, and I think that's that's the way to do it, because typically it's the complete opposite, like you kind of prefaced it with. It's generally we leave when it's not the best. And in fact I was laying there the other day just kind of taking stock of your life and how things are, and you know this, that and the other thing, and I came to the realization I thought, you know, I really wish like the sun would blow up right now, because I don't think it's going to get any better for me at this point. I mean, over the last few years we've been making changes and evolving as a human being and all the other stuff, and I thought I'm at a point now where I'm just I kind of feel, like you do with your job, it's time for me to leave. I've done all I can do here. It's as good as I could make it. It's so, but typically that's it's the opposite.
Speaker 1:For my career it was kind of the opposite. I it wasn't, I left under different terms than you did, but for me it was obvious it was time to go because I couldn't do everything I wanted to do. So it was like, okay, I've done this for a long time and I think that's one of the unique things about us over damn near every other occupation in the world is I worked in the same place for 29 years, you know no, but that doesn't happen anymore. I mean, people just throw all over the page. Even in the fire services they don't do that very much. I think that's that's becoming less the rule and more the exception, I think, to stay somewhere your whole career.
Speaker 1:So for me it was you left under a certain. There were things going on, we had a new administration and there were changes and you thought this is ridiculous. But during that time I thought back on the older people I watched leave that were in the same position. They were pissed off and and it just you got to be able to figure out that I can be pissed off about certain things over here, but that's not what my life is, and so you know I have the ability to change that.
Speaker 1:So that and that was kind of it, and I just and I was pretty fortunate, to be honest, because I was at the point where I thought I can leave and I can give this a try over here and see what this is going to produce. So you know, I'm going to just shift gears a little bit, that's you know. So I retired from the government work and we started doing this and here we are some Jesus 14, 15 years ago, man, and it goes by in a blink. So, yeah, it's good to have choices and options and things like that.
Speaker 2:Well, I think far too many people in our occupation get locked in. They don't give themselves any choices. There is no way out. They get fed up and stay instead of fed up and leave. And you know it is a free country. If you're unhappy in your job, you should find something else to do. I mean, it's a third of our life where we're working. So I think we owe it to ourselves, and we also owe it to ourselves to have new challenges. I mean, I've been a fire chief for 22 years and that's a long time to be, you know, wearing five uggles. I mean all but one of them. I wore five uggles. I'm really looking forward to some new challenges in the fire service and I want to do them while I'm young enough to still be vibrant or somewhat vibrant doing it, because you know time is going fast.
Speaker 1:like you, said oh yeah, we'll be dead before we know it anyway. So I mean, it's just kind of the way it goes, but it was. It was interesting and at the time when I left it was our organization was going through some huge changes because you had a fire chief who was there for hell damn near 30 years and was very successful and well known and all that went with that. And then for just an organization to change and somehow figure out, okay, what's our new course going to be? You know, because there's a lot of people that want to fill in and they want it to go different ways and you know, and that starts before they even retire. So all that's, you know, you got all that brewing and stuff going on in the background, and then you know you're going to retire, and then all this takes place and it seems to me that people kind of lose their minds, especially the ones that when the existing leader leaves, there's a leadership vacuum. So everybody's kind of competing to fill that and it's very dysfunctional. Is my experience in watching that? You think this is not uh-uh. You're doing this about individuals and we're an organization, we're not a person, we're a team of people here, and so that kind of. There's a lot of beauty contests, pretty pigism going on during those times. So, and really, the workforce I mean this is kind of like an organizational dynamic where they've had this over a very long time and so they're kind of without a rudder and they're wondering, oh, wow, this is going to be something. So there was a group of us like, yeah, we got front row seats and popcorn. Man, this is going to be. It's going to be interesting to see what occurs next.
Speaker 1:And then at some point, I think they all figured out hey, we have a stake in this, this is where we live a third of our lives, and I don't know if I want to. There's too much stress that goes with it and you're almost powerless because it's like, okay, I'm aboard the ship now, but they're going over here and I don't know about this, and so there's, it creates a lot of opportunity, let's say, to do either really good or nefarious stuff. But the nice thing about our career, that is still there, as we got a pension and it's it's still. I think it's becoming more and more different in the Occupational world when you look at it, especially the back end piece. Now I've been retired, like I said for 15 years and a Pension is a beautiful thing. It's that we very, we're very fortunate. You're going to explore how good that is is getting to get paid and not go to work.
Speaker 2:It's a very American concept and talking recently about pensions and retirement with a lot of a variety of people, I've had more than one person say you know, the young people just don't care about the pension. So I think we're here to tell you care about your pension. It's going to give you the freedom later on, when you want that freedom, to do the things that you want to do, whether that's changing careers or changing departments or totally retiring and, yeah, travel in the world or whatever it is you want to do, but value that pension. I think that is, oh, it's key.
Speaker 1:Oh, it really is. I mean, that was kind of the deal, was why we got it. Is the firefighters did not Just kind of a historical is we died before you collect social security. So I mean, that's one of the reasons we have the pension we have. So, and the way it was set up back then is you work 20 years and you got a pension when, when I first started my career, there was a firefighter work for Phoenix.
Speaker 1:He was a company officer and he had worked in the military. When he was young, so like out of high school, he had listed and he I don't know how long you got to stay in the military, you get a pension, but he stayed long enough to get a pension right. So he pensions out of the military and then he becomes a civilian. He went to work for the post office. So he works for the post office and retires from the folk post office. Well, when he did that, he joined the Phoenix fire department. So he had three different careers where he was getting a pension from all three of them. In fact you said earlier yeah, garrison, we disconnected from him. Today We'll hook up on the next one, but there's a man who collected some pensions over his career. So he would just go from place to place to place. And now when you watch that, garrison didn't switch jobs to get more pensions, it just came with the job.
Speaker 1:He did that because he wanted to be a fire chief. He thought that was. You know, that's like you said. Okay In, my career here in Phoenix is over and it's ending, so I'm gonna go. I want to keep doing this, but I can't do it here anymore. That's run its course. So then he goes other places and does that, and so he hell. He probably worked About 18 years after he retired in three or four different places as a fire chief and he finally had enough. He said I'm done, I can't do it anymore. And so what's nice for the group of us is this is where old, crazy firefighters who, like, do an incident command, come to hang out at our final days here.
Speaker 2:So no, no, we're in days, yeah, yeah, so we have a place to keep us warm during the zombie apocalypse.
Speaker 1:So which is good fun, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know, we've talked about it before because it's just not a retirement thing, but it's also knowing when you need to transfer stations, knowing when it's time to take that promotional test so you can move on to the next thing. I mean, there's some indications there for people to to know when to say when and when to move on and not hold yourself back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mm-hmm, there is, and it's different for all of us. You know, the world taps you on the shoulder and says, no, you're not, you're not doing this anymore. When we first started though, okay, I'm gonna be a firefighter. Well, in my academy that's where we all start we're gonna be firefighters. By the time we got to the like, three months into graduate, we had all made the decision we were gonna be captain paramedics, because the captain was the ultimate leader of the crew, you know. So that's, we all want to be that pretty pig and then paramedic. Because you know, paramedics are the most I Don't know magnetic Occupation that exists in the world. And they hook you. You can meet nurses.
Speaker 1:So we thought we're gonna be captain paramedics, that'll be, that's it, you know. So you start your career off and I I lost the paramedic thing pretty quick. I went to school that did all the stuff and I thought nice, paramedic deal Ain't for me. I did this. May not be the best thing for me to start doing medical treatment on patient people. That is this invasive it's. It was it's time to go. When do you know?
Speaker 2:When you're reminiscing about the, the shit and shaving part of the LB, yeah, and that was a great station.
Speaker 1:I mean, it really was. It was single engine company and, and. But I left there to go to busier station. So I knew I this is, this is to, it's to sedate, here for me there's not enough people and you had a process in your department because you had enough stations, enough companies, enough shifts, whatever mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:There was upward Mobility.
Speaker 1:You could well you could. It's not upward mobility is more choices of where you want to work, as a firefighter, an engineer, within your rank. But you know, like you say, you got 50 engines, that's you got 50 places to pick and then you got three shifts. So there's a lot of choice there and that's really kind of what we did. The way it was set up in Our department I think it still is is it was all seniority based bid, so there was nobody. No, you didn't have to get permission from some chief to get a spot, typically, as if you had the seniority and the Qualifications for that spot, it was yours. It was pure seniority based bid system which worked out very well. And then, as far as Because it was a big growing department Under now during my 29 years probably all but two or three of those years we would put at least three classes through the academy every year.
Speaker 1:So there was always a lot of turnover, you know, and it was people just retiring, coming in and we're working their career and then retiring out the back end. So there was a lot of opportunity to promote in the thing and and that was I kind of stuck by that thought out of the academy is. I wanted to promote to company officer as soon as I could. That was just. I don't know why we're just broken that way. We come like that. So I had the the least amount of qualifying time to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was like the one of the youngest people to take it at that time and it's just because the way it worked out that I got hired and the timing of everything so I had enough time to take that test. Otherwise I would have had to wait a couple years. So I took the first one I could and then I ended up getting promoted off of that list. So I was a firefighter about eight years, probably, all told eight, eight and a half and then I worked as a company officer for about 10. And I, like you say you figure out when it's time for you to go and stay and what you're going to do. As I found, I rove for I don't know a year or so, probably as a company officer. So you worked all over the city. You know, usually they, as you got more seniority, you kind of worked in the same the places you wanted to work. So you were kind of an area of town or a place or whatever it was.
Speaker 1:And then I ended up taking a ladder truck. Instead of becoming a paramedic, I went more towards the that side of the workforce. So I got on a ladder. I was. That's what we did, is we became the raging queen, which was our identity for 10 years. Fantastic, I was not. That's where I was going to retire from. I was going to be a captain on a ladder truck.
Speaker 2:Well, what made you decide, from there being a captain of the raging queen, that it was time to take the chief's test?
Speaker 1:The combination of me being a subordinate and the people who were my supervisors. Yeah yeah, that didn't work out very well for a group of us.
Speaker 2:A bad boss is always inspirational to want to be a boss, because that's why I got into what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly that was kind of it I didn't like and it was and I was doing other things. So we're very fortunate because you could take breaks from working in the field and there were enough, because our fire chief was such a lunatic and progressive on. Everything is that there was always the looking and exploring and trying and changing, and so that created a lot of opportunities for the members to do different things, because they would open up and say, okay, we need a captain and this is good for one year, it's a temporary spot, you're going to staff but this is what you're going to work on these two projects accountability systems and integrating our SOPs with NIMS. A hundred years ago it was in the 90s, early 90s so I took a little sabbatical for like six months and went and worked on that. It was perfect because we were doing training and that's how I got involved there. So you're building all this training throughout your career. You work in the field as a regular thing. You do little training gigs as overtime deals where that kind of becomes your thing. Teach it in the community college system.
Speaker 1:So that kind of gave you that background to get those positions and, plus, nobody wanted them. I mean, if you were the captain on engine five, oh, I can go invent an accountability system and work on staff. What the hell was that? Never. Oh, if you think this is honey here, you get to be your own boss over here and they give you a car and in fact if you're not disciplined enough, you will go to jail in that position over there. Yeah, there's too much freedom that comes with it. So it was good that you had. And what I like about it is they said no, this is we want an accountability system. You're here till there's an accountability system and we need to somehow integrate volume to fire command with NWCG, nims. This is NIMS in the 90s.
Speaker 1:So I just as an example, I did that little deal, probably six months had. We finished the thing, me and my partner, in fact the guy who took the other spot. We ended up getting paired up later on and became partners. So the fact that the two of us went and did that during our careers kind of married us later on and when I became I was like we're both captains. I became a shift commander years later and he became my partner in the thing. So it was just, you know, kind of locked us in, but that was a good thing.
Speaker 1:And, like you asked earlier, when do you know it's time to go? Well, we were in that position and we were finished. We finished our work and so we went back and said, hey, we knew this. No, this was for a year, but we got nothing to do. We got to go to the academy and train everybody now in this and we said, yeah, we'll do that, but training goes from nine. Our training is nine to 1030 is our segment. Yeah, well, that's what you're going to do the next six months. You're going to train every day from 930 to 1030 or nine to 10, whatever it was. Basically, you're going to be here from eight to noon. All right, what do we do after lunch?
Speaker 2:Well, we don't know I do.
Speaker 1:We're going to go back to the field because that's not going to be a good thing for us. It weren't, no, no, and they agreed. They said, ok, you're right. And they said, well, but you have to go back and train. Well, yeah, we'll do that, we'll just get paid overtime for it. Oh, ok, no problem. So you get your cake and you get to eat it, and then you get an extra tub of frosting. And you think Jesus Christ man, this is great to be a captain.
Speaker 2:You solved the problem for them too.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, we gave them what they wanted. They gave us. It was us, it was all us, it wasn't us and them, it was the whole thing. So that was a very good thing. And then I went back to the Raging Queen. And then I took another break, probably five years later, and went to the TV station for six months, but I had taken the chief's test. So I was kind of at the edge then and that was really kind of it is.
Speaker 1:I thought I don't want to go back. I can't go back there because I can't. I no longer can fit in the cubicle where that guy who supervises that guy comes and tells me what I'm going to do. That's that would be like me staying in the temporary position and just kind of rolling the dice every day after lunch. So you figure out what you know, what's good for you and what's good for the organization. I took the begrudging, took the chief's test. I don't want to do this and there was just kind of them. That was the attitude of the workforce pretty much. We don't want to be chiefs, we just didn't want to do it. And then you know what happened to us fans as we got old is, I talked about my partner, right. So now I'm a battalion chief.
Speaker 1:I had no concept and I worked with them. I mean I have no excuse for this, but I didn't know what they did. Really I had no idea what their function was. I mean, I'd argue with them about stuff, and so I become this battalion chief and they put me in the field, which was good, and so it took me a couple months to figure out the routine, because they said oh, you have to go visit all your stations every day. So you should like every week you should have visited every single station in your battalion at least once. So I did that. For the first couple months I thought I'm driving around just going to places, like I'm a goddamn delivery person, because they said I should do this. I'm done, this is stupid. So what I would do in the morning is I would put all my work stuff in a box and put it in the back seat. So all the gratings that needed the company officers that had to be raided, all the vacation stuff or leaf slips I was responsible for making sure they got signed Very few, less than like 3% of those, but those would come to BCs every now and then You'd typically go visit the station, like, nah, I'm going to put in the rig and we'll see everybody in our battalion on calls at least once a week, and if I don't, I'll go by their station.
Speaker 1:Well, we're a busy battalion and we would see them once a week and sometimes I just call them over the radio. Hey, battalion three to engine four, I need you to meet me over in the parking lot. Blah, blah, blah, blah. We're just driving down the street. Oh, cop, we go over and hey, how you doing Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, simple enough. So my partner is taking off my driver and he's going to be gone for like three weeks.
Speaker 1:So next I work at this is a third battalion, so engine 25, 725, ambo is next door. Busy, hammer, hammer station, man 4,000 runs each rig all day long and probably one of the busiest fire stations for structure fires. A lot of single family Maryville houses, so you get a lot of those, you know. One line, 10 minutes, boom, we're done, satisfying, exactly. And then light commercial. So you got these old commercial buildings, southwest supermarkets, in a third battalion. So you, the third battalion, went probably on double the fires of any other BC in the city. So the only is the busiest one of those. So, but 725 was an adaptive response. So it's ALS. They're doing about 4,000 runs a year and they move from station to station. It's a hammer.
Speaker 1:I go over older senior captain In fact he's got like two years on me. I go over and say, hey, double D is going to be off for the next couple of weeks. Do you want to just move over and drive me? He says he sits for a minute. He looks at me and says you know, I'm kind of, and this was the guy who did accountability, so we were on staff together and we he just happened to be the captain on engine 725. And I just happened to come to the third battalion. They're housed in the same facility, so we knew each other pretty well. And I said, uh, yet he had. And he says you know, nick, that's very I'm flattered that you would ask me to do that. And he says you know, and can you let me think about it? And I said, well, sure, what's to think about? And he says, well, you know, I just don't know if I'm ready to give up my manhood that quickly.
Speaker 1:You know, he says this night in Q, because that's what we the way we, you know showed love to one another. And I said, okay, bitch, you let me know when you get it around your head if you want to do it or not. So he comes over after dinner and he says you know, I'm really interested in it. And he says but you know, do I have to commit? And I said, well, do you want to do it? And he says, well, yeah, I want to. I said, okay, so show up next shift and you're driving me. All right, If you don't like it, you can go back next shift to engine 725. Yeah, you can get your scrotum back and put all the stuff in and go back. Be the captain on that engine. Oh, that'd be fantastic. All right, we work our first shift Done. He gets there early, pulls the truck out, he fills it with gas. It's got like three quarters.
Speaker 1:He fills it up Okay, washes everything, takes it all apart. He's a paramedic, so he takes all the EMS gear off, goes through it. I said, put that back, we won't be using that today.
Speaker 2:No, that hasn't been used in a fortnight. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:I said there's probably no BK with a razor in there it's so old.
Speaker 1:No more for you and me, buddy. In fact, it'd be better for the customer if they needed something in that box, if we just beat them to death with it instead of actually treating them. Anyway, different role, you don't do that anymore. So, yeti, yeti, yeti, we do the shift next morning. Get up and I'm getting ready to leave and I can't find him. You know, the C-shifters are in there doing their thing, reading the newspaper to each other. I'm walked by his dorm room and he's laying on the ground hey, lynn, I'll see you next shift. And he's kind of like emotional. He's not crying or anything, but you can tell he's like in deep thought and he's like yeah, I'll be here next. I feel good to stay here. He says I don't want to leave here ever One shift. Oh, okay, so you're okay being no longer a male. Let's say, yes, I don't want to be a male anymore, I want to be with you. So that was it. We, a double D, left, probably, I don't know. About a year later he promoted he says it's time for me to go and be a chief somewhere Off. He goes. And then Lynn came over. I said okay, you're it. And then we became. We went to shift commanders. Probably three years later I'm going to say two or three years later went to shift commanders.
Speaker 1:Southwest supermarkets happen. We go to shift commanders, we become shift commanders. Me, garrison, hinton, go to the north and another group go south. Lynn was still my partner. We go in, we're shift commanders a while. They said, well, you guys are, basically you have the rank of a deputy chief, so you're, you're above a battalion, a shift commanders rank above a battalion chief. If I was on staff it'd be a division chief is the lower rank, a deputy chief is the higher one. So they said a deputy chief should not have a captain fit. That doesn't the rank, doesn't match. And what they your fit does is they're going to, because we had switched over with safety, we had absorbed safety. So they said they're going to manage the safety officers. Basically, so we're going to make your and they were captains driving the BCs. So the shift commanders fits become battalions.
Speaker 1:Well, my partner was on the chief's list and getting he was next up, so it was perfect. So what they did is they accused the two of us of masterminding this whole thing four years earlier. As far as that, we lit Southwest supermarkets that no, you didn't do that, but we know you too had something to do in this getting upgraded thing. Yeah, exactly what it is is we're just brighter than the rest of you. And we knew that. The life tapped us on the shoulder and said no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:Now the reason I promoted from captain to battalion chief was because my father kept sending and he would he was alive, he tell you this the worst to supervise the raging queen. He said now, there's certain people need to promote and they're over there and over there, so that they kind of at the end there he would just go after people to be chiefs and he would go visit them and we probably had a 90% success rate of saying, no, you need to take the chief's test. So in fact, he was going to do a thing. We hated it so much fans. He was going to hire chiefs from outside and bring them into Phoenix and I remember sitting there talking to him about that as a captain, I said I'm not going to ladder truck, I've worked here for however long it's been 18 years, whatever and some guy from Wherever shows up and he's gonna be my BC and see, yep, that's the way it works. And then you saw bitches take the test, so you're gonna get supervised by out of towners. He says you can't run the fire department like this anymore. He says they ain't working. He says all the cream is stuck at captain company officer. He says they need to. So God bless him. We said no, they don't want to do it for reasons, man, they have the legitimate reasons. You don't want to be chief. It sucks, it's. It's not as good a job as being a captain in the field. So and God bless him they started fixing things and saying, okay, yeah, but we get it.
Speaker 1:And boom, by the end, now I become a shift commander at this point, and it was towards the end of my career but they started doing meetings across three shifts. So there was no more coming on your days off, because that was just a given when I. That was one of the problems when you first promoted is you were just expected if there was something on your day off, you just went and because you were middle manager, you didn't get paid for. So it said, well, if you got paid overtime? I said, well, just a minute, if we got paid overtime first of all, we wouldn't be having these meetings because nobody would pay for them because they're stupid. The only reason you guys are having them is you're already getting paid in your at work, your staff people, and this is what you do. You meet all goddamn day doing this and that and the other thing. Oh, you seem to know so much. Blah, blah, blah. But yeah, that's why nobody will promote.
Speaker 1:So they started doing their thing and they, they, they were moving in place. They gave us a fourth deputy at the North shift commander For that reason, so you would have somebody that could be in charge of the CTC and volume 2 all the time. And then what we were going to do is the 3 on shift. It's just going to be a cycle. So a shift we get the fourth deputy, the a shifter goes over, spends three, six months at the CTC, he comes back on a shift, then the B shifter goes over. Boom that, now the new guy fills in. So, whatever that looks like. So you had a shift commander spot you were staffing and the CTC Manager spot you were staffing out of the same Poor guys, yeah. And so what it did is we quit going to meetings on our days off because you had a rep who was there all the time, in fact that's where they were having the meeting was there so, and then they became. We became incident response again. We only did this for about one training, the last training session we did, and I was the guy so I was the fourth deputy.
Speaker 1:At that point I said I'll go over and Start it because we were rewriting volume 2. So we were. We had changed enough shit in the Phoenix fire department With the recovery that we had to change our ops manual. I mean, we didn't match and it was. It was there were things that were always that didn't Reflect it accurately, but you just didn't know how it. They were impossible to fix because this you did it this way and this you did this way. When these two came together there was no way to make it mesh. So I Went over and I started tearing apart volume 2 and doing the thing, and then I would teach Tuesday, wednesday, thursday, that's in the mornings. That's how we Delivered command training and that was the staff deputies job to do that. So then the shift commander across the street was just available all the time to go on calls, you know, so that you weren't having to screw around with that anymore.
Speaker 1:And then my dad retired and they closed the CTC down. You know they did it, but they made a bunch of changes. Well, that's the right of the new fire chief. They can do whatever the hell they want. They're in charge now. Now it should make sense and support kind of the mission of the fire department, but anyway. So that became like that. That was like the shot across the bow for us. We thought, okay, this is a lot of stuff's changing here. We're no longer the people that are going to be doing that change. In fact, you're going to change. All the shit we did essentially is where they're at now, which is fine. So I stuck around for a few years and then it became obvious to me nah, this is going. I got an opportunity to go over here now and do this. So I left about I don't know, probably two or three years earlier than I planned on, but it just it worked out for me and everybody else, and you were busy enough, you had something to go to.
Speaker 2:and you, because you were actually out of leave and you had to make a choice whether you're going to work at the fire department, you're going to go train the American fire service.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I do blue card, which, yeah, I mean that was kind of the thing, and blue card was really kind of coming along at that point as we and the things we wanted to do with it we could, because we were doing it off duty. It became our well in 98, we've formed across the street productions and that was purely to produce the second edition of fire command, that whole educational package. That's why we formed this company. Yeah, we didn't form it to do this. What we're doing today, it just evolved Exactly, vance, and that's kind of the universe knocking on your forehead saying no, there's your.
Speaker 1:You shouldn't be here anymore. You should be over here doing this and more people are going to get more out of it that way. You know, it's not like we're a bunch of selfless bastards or anything you know, because we I have found if you can run a successful business, you'll drive nicer vehicles than when you work for the government. So I mean there is that to it. But I mean there's a lot going on. But we're doing more, I think, for the fire service today than we were doing before when we were the fire service. So I mean that's what it is.
Speaker 2:And I think there's something to that. When the universe is knocking at your door, answer the fricking door, because I mean, there's stuff all around you and people just don't realize it. And you know you talking about the battalion chief, gig, I know people from your job that, no, no, I never want to be a chief. And these are guys who came in after you and once they drove the chief and they realized, oh, okay, this is what it is. Then they wanted to do it. It's like when we went to Blue Card, I used to have guys like be very, very judgmental of what the chiefs were doing. Because, oh, you get to sit in Tahoe Mafia, you know, you guys sit in their climate controlled and you don't have. Well, once that person who was very judgmental about what chiefs do sat in as a support officer once and had to keep the tactical worksheet. Then they got it. They're like, oh my God, there's a lot going on here. Yes, there is. And that person then wanted to promote to be a chief. You know, that was suddenly a cool job.
Speaker 1:You know it's amazing that you bring that up and that same guy works in every single fire department as you would hear them in there just constantly just ragging on. Oh, you want to slap them and but it is, it's an epiphany when they finally get it. I've been in command vans where, like somebody said May Day and you think uh-oh, and it got like tense for a minute and a half where it's like, and at the end of it those same, like you said, those same people they're having to go outside and emotionally hide from everybody while they compose themselves again and that's good. Like you say, they answered the door. They thought you know I'm an idiot that I said that. There's times I thought to myself you are a moron for the shit you have said before. Once you say this about the position two positions above you, and then 20 years later you're in those positions. Oh, this is so wrong. But I mean that's, that's growth, I guess emotional growth.
Speaker 2:The class we're doing this week. Pat Dale's here in the area that he used to serve. There's a guy from that area and Pat had pulled up as the BC and they were in the middle of a physical rescue and this guy could not understand why the chief didn't get out of his car and help him with the rescue and and he just he said he was angry after the word and he told he told us all this during class this week and and uh, you know he's going through all these emotions at the time they're going through the rescue. Then he went over to Pat, put his head on his shoulder and wept because, because it was just such an emotionally charged thing he just didn't understand the job. He didn't. No one explained to him why the chief has to stay strategic and why can't, why can't, why can't everyone rush in and help the victims? No, you know, no one ever done that before.
Speaker 2:Pat ended up doing it eventually. And now the guy understands and everything. But you don't know what you don't know. And I think it's up to us a lot of times to, um, not only expose people to the reason why we're doing what we're doing as far as command functions and everything else, but also to get them to be interested in some of these other jobs in the department. Now, I've always come from small way, smaller departments than you, but it's been one of my jobs, I think, to try to get the next generation to to want to move up. So you give them opportunities to either you know, act as officers or give them projects to do or whatever.
Speaker 2:So, they start to get a taste and and then they realize well, we're going to be running the organization if we do this. Our PCs run the run the day to day. It's not the ops chief and it's not me.
Speaker 1:You know, vance, I hear you. And the other thing to, I guess, recognize in all of this is, when life knocks on your forehead, to answer it is there's also a limit to how high you should go. There are some people that promote too high. You shouldn't get into a Peter principle where it's like, okay, I, I, I'm in app now and this is yeah. So, and a lot of times what happens is they just keep promoting those people and think, no, you can't stay in here because there's too much you can do wrong and we can't demote you. So we're going to promote you again.
Speaker 1:And I watched that for a little while, especially like in the younger part of my career. Later on it became they were cherry picking people to take the chief's test. In fact, there was a year when all this broke. There were eight people that showed up to take the chief's test. That same year, probably 200 people took the company officer's test right. So there was no comparison. Nobody wanted to be a chief. So you have a list with eight individuals on it. They needed 12, there was 12 promotions during the life of that list. They refused to promote for the individuals on that list. They said they're sociopaths. We will not do that to the workforce.
Speaker 1:And so that's where the old man started looking, says I got a higher fire chiefs from outside, or chief officers from outside, because he'd go out on the road on the weekends and he had he could have chose among a thousand different people to bring back to Phoenix to be his command staff and response chiefs. And he thought no, I can share. It's almost like blue card. We said no, no, no, that person's going to be an instructor for us. They understand this better than we do. So he was seeing those individuals and thinking no man, I could. It's bad enough that the Phoenix fire department hires the cream away from the other fire departments around us. He was going out on the road now and said I'm going to pull in all the strategic level bosses now, which would have been brilliant, but that would have taken some. There would have had to be been some shaper owning process to get the new ones and the existing ones to kind of accept each other.
Speaker 2:Let's say yeah, I think in a large organization it would be a lot harder to do that than than a moderate or small organization. Yeah, I mean you've got to do it sometimes. But you know, I think in the case here there was more encouragement that came along and they changed the job too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they did, they made it better. God bless them. I mean they were yeah.
Speaker 2:If you're a chief and you can't get people to promote, you got to look inside and look under the hood and figure out why people don't want the job.
Speaker 1:Well, that's kind of the problem and the issue, you see, with the fire service today in general. We just don't have the number of people that are competing to be firefighters anymore. They don't want to do it, so it's so you got to find new ways to entice younger people to cut. I don't understand it. I mean it's the greatest occupation there is, even with all it's odd Death destruction. The gear gives us cancer, all of it. That's the greatest job ever.
Speaker 2:It is it?
Speaker 1:is, with all the warts man. There ain't nothing better at truly standing inside a burning building with an inch and a half attack line. It's like driving a really fast car and having sex with another human being all at the same time.
Speaker 2:You can't explain it to people who've never done it before. No, when?
Speaker 1:you catch on fire, it's a whole different thrill. Yeah, so that's one of the challenges we have in the fire service is you have, first of all, a group that enjoys, that has their own issues of just managing them in an everyday work environment, has its challenges, but the work itself is it was you loved it so much. Now, the problem with that is you've got to take the good, the bad with the good. So not all the calls are the same Is. There's a lot of calls you just oh, not this again, but you do one to do the other. I guess, I don't know, it's a package so Well let's save some of this.
Speaker 2:Well, I think we should come back and talk to Terry about some of those we can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're just wetting our whistle on it, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's a lot more to talk about, but you know what it is time for Timestactical truth.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Timestactical truth the four of clubs from Allen Brunassini's set of Timestactical Truths. You can get them through us at BShiftercom. The name of the IMS game is helping internal and external humans be safe, successful and connected with their own empowered control. The IMS game is helping internal and external humans be safe, successful and connected with their own empowered control. Empowered control External customers how are we? How are we giving them control?
Speaker 1:Well, we're a public safety response agency, so we return, we respond to the scene of the incident to restore safety to the community. When we do that, it empowers them to return to their normal life. They no longer have to fight for their life because we came and eliminated whatever hazard was causing them to lose their empowerment. So that was and command. The more organized and methodical we do that, the quicker we restore order, the less resources it takes, the more successful we are and the quicker life gets back to normal again.
Speaker 2:And as far as the internal humans, how do we empower them to get to the safety part of all of that?
Speaker 1:Well, we empower them by giving them a system where they can show up where the first unit gets to the scene and they establish command of the incident, and then they're empowered to manage an IAP that quickly solves those incident hazards and problems. So there's the empowerment. Is the organization has systems that make us more effective when we're delivering service. So there's, that's my two cents. May or may not be true, but that's what we're throwing out today.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm inclined to believe it.
Speaker 1:Thank you, vance. Me too, you're welcome. That's what we're going to go off with.
Speaker 2:I'm empowered to believe. All right, that does it for this B-Shifter. Thanks so much for listening. Hey, if you haven't done so already, make sure you check out the show notes so you can see what we have coming up. We have a few things, including the hazard zone conference 2024 and Cincinnati, and there's one more thing that we're doing. We're looking for your helmet, so there's a link to where we are getting your helmets for the AVBC, ttc and the show notes. Make sure to subscribe to tell a friend and tell next time. Thanks so much for being here.